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VLocity train order off track as fleet built too heavy

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    Topic moved from News by bevans on 25 Feb 2019 08:40
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
    I'm guessing PTV V/Line had their arm twisted to have their new diesel powered machines to comply with the latest (local) diesel emission standards (Euro 2)
    Nightfire
    The latest model of the Cummins QSK19R has been modifed with a new very high pressure common rail injection system (Note 1) specficly to meet the latest European emission standards even at 750BHP output.

    Note 1: such an injection system makes the engine burn cleaner and quieter. Common rail means all injectors are supplied with VERY high pressure fuel via a common pipe and the injectors are totally controled electriclly. It means the combustion process can be much better controled. Its a great system as long as you do not have to get it fixed which is VERY expensive. THe only test rig in Australia is at Bosch in Melbourne.

    woodford
    Posted: 08 May 2019 00:33

    Last edited by woodford on 08 May 2019 00:34; edited 1 time in total

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      electric Chief Train Controller

    Location: Ist mir egal
    I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
    I'm guessing PTV V/Line had their arm twisted to have their new diesel powered machines to comply with the latest (local) diesel emission standards (Euro 2)
    Nightfire

    Given that we're up to Euro 6 cars & buses, any reason why trains are at Euro 2? It appears to be from 1996.
    I guess it's better than all the old locomotives you see blowing clouds of blue smoke...
    Posted: 10 May 2019 22:35
      justapassenger Minister for Railways

    I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
    I'm guessing PTV V/Line had their arm twisted to have their new diesel powered machines to comply with the latest (local) diesel emission standards (Euro 2)

    Given that we're up to Euro 6 cars & buses, any reason why trains are at Euro 2? It appears to be from 1996.
    I guess it's better than all the old locomotives you see blowing clouds of blue smoke...
    electric
    There are completely separate sets of standards for road engines and non-road engines. Euro 2 (road) and Stage II (non-road) have nothing to do with each other.

    Stage II was phased in between 2001-04, and they are currently up to Stage V which commenced phasing in last year.

    The non-road standards are broadly comparable to the US EPA 'Tier' standards for non-road engines.
    Posted: 11 May 2019 01:17
      electric Chief Train Controller

    Location: Ist mir egal
    Given that we're up to Euro 6 cars & buses, any reason why trains are at Euro 2? It appears to be from 1996.
    I guess it's better than all the old locomotives you see blowing clouds of blue smoke...
    There are completely separate sets of standards for road engines and non-road engines. Euro 2 (road) and Stage II (non-road) have nothing to do with each other.

    Stage II was phased in between 2001-04, and they are currently up to Stage V which commenced phasing in last year.

    The non-road standards are broadly comparable to the US EPA 'Tier' standards for non-road engines.
    justapassenger

    Thanks for explaining that. I did see those stages during a quick read on Wikipedia, but ignored them on the basis that II was also really old. Any reason why we're using a standard from 15 years ago?
    Posted: 13 May 2019 20:54
      justapassenger Minister for Railways

    Thanks for explaining that. I did see those stages during a quick read on Wikipedia, but ignored them on the basis that II was also really old. Any reason why we're using a standard from 15 years ago?
    electric
    It's worse - there is no national standard for off-road diesel engines in Australia. Selecting higher quality engines is up to the choice of the operator.

    My guess would be that certain big players lobbied federal governments to not apply them to off-road diesel engines.
    Posted: 13 May 2019 22:32
      DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

    Yes the older ones were weighed .   76, 77, 78, 79 allegedly are now all cleared to run in revenue service as of 27/02/19 according to Addenda on VLP Corporate website .  All 79 VL sets currently in service allowed 160kmh on suitable track class and tare weight of 3 car set is now listed for all sets as 181 tonnes  .  

    The HUN story followed in the best Murdoch Gutter Rag traditions and was an absolute "BEAT  UP."
    kuldalai
    So how is the Murdoch Gutter Rag's traditional "BEAT UP" story coming along then?

    The Herald Sun had the story published in February, some four months ago.  At that time, velocities 76 to 79 had been already languishing in the yards for a few months.

    Has anyone seen any of them in service?
    Posted: 06 Jun 2019 22:41
      scumcock Locomotive Fireman

    Considering they failed to meet the required braking curve during testing plus the need for training courseware to be amended due to modifications plus training crews on this I cant see it anytime soon but guess what there will be zero accountability for this monumental stuff up and will be covered up as best they can.
    Posted: 06 Jun 2019 22:51
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    Considering they failed to meet the required braking curve during testing plus the need for training courseware to be amended due to modifications plus training crews on this I cant see it anytime soon but guess what there will be zero accountability for this monumental stuff up and will be covered up as best they can.
    scumcock

    It would be interesting to learn the full story regards these 'orphan' sets.

    How the specs were changed so much as to require them to sit for months unused, then be put into service with people crossing their fingers that everything will work out just fine etc.

    Mike.
    Posted: 07 Jun 2019 10:26
      max_thum Station Master

    Location: Melbourne, Victoria
    As of 00.00 15 July 2019.

    VL76-77-78-79 have been allowed to operate revenue services on the V/Line network. Expect to see them on Bacchus Marsh, Geelong, Waurn Ponds and Wyndham Vale.
    Posted: 15 Jul 2019 09:38
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    As of 00.00 15 July 2019.

    VL76-77-78-79 have been allowed to operate revenue services on the V/Line network. Expect to see them on Bacchus Marsh, Geelong, Waurn Ponds and Wyndham Vale.
    max_thum
    VL78 ran to Sth Geelong this morning.  No wonder they're keeping these "Heavy Metal" V/Los away from hills ...
    Posted: 15 Jul 2019 11:28
      Duncs Chief Commissioner

    Given the very high power to weight ratio for V Locity trains, a bit of extra weight should not affect thier performance, or where they run.
    Posted: 15 Jul 2019 15:22
      Contrillion Junior Train Controller

    Location: Geelong, Victoria
    As of 00.00 15 July 2019.

    VL76-77-78-79 have been allowed to operate revenue services on the V/Line network. Expect to see them on Bacchus Marsh, Geelong, Waurn Ponds and Wyndham Vale.
    VL78 ran to Sth Geelong this morning.  No wonder they're keeping these "Heavy Metal" V/Los away from hills ...
    Carnot
    Took it home from work yesterday afternoon.

    The seats are pretty hard - good to start off with but I found myself shifting around a lot to stay comfortable by the time we got to the Geelong area. Skinnier seats as well to the point where I felt like I was sitting in a Sprinter.

    The reduced acceleration was noticeable as well, can't comment on the top speed as we never reached it on account of running slow behind the previous service most of the way.

    For those that want to catch VL78 (current coupled with VL5x(?) for most of the day - it swaps around before doing the 2005) it currently does the following runs in service each weekday;
    • 0623 Southern Cross to Wyndham Vale
    • 0711 Wyndham Vale to Southern Cross
    • 1350 Southern Cross to South Geelong
    • 1524 South Geelong to Southern Cross
    • 1648 Southern Cross to South Geelong
    • 1800 South Geelong to Southern Cross
    • 2005 Southern Cross to Waurn Ponds
    • 2129 Waurn Ponds to Southern Cross
    Posted: 26 Jul 2019 09:08

    Last edited by Contrillion on 07 Aug 2019 08:05; edited 1 time in total
      Contrillion Junior Train Controller

    Location: Geelong, Victoria
    Further to my last post, set VL77 currently runs the following weekday revenue runs;
    • 0629 South Geelong to Southern Cross
    • 0750 Southern Cross to South Geelong
    • 0924 South Geelong to Southern Cross (the train then splits so VL77 continues alone to run;)
    • 1050 Southern Cross to Waurn Ponds
    • 1215 Waurn Ponds to Southern Cross (then joins another 3 car set)
    • 1510 Southern Cross to South Geelong
    • 1639 South Geelong to Southern Cross
    • 1756 Southern Cross to Marshall

    Then stabling at Geelong Loco overnight.

    It's in use for most of the day unlike VL78.
    Posted: 07 Aug 2019 08:04

    Last edited by Contrillion on 07 Aug 2019 08:06; edited 1 time in total
      Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

    Location:
    I spotted Vlocity set 77 today and went inside to check out the changes.
    The video is here.


    https://youtu.be/gchRBpvBwJg
    I should probably issue a Spoiler Alert for the end of the video when I exit the train because of a recent development at the station.
    Posted: 10 Aug 2019 18:53
      Duncs Chief Commissioner

    I counted 18 - 20 rows of four seats depending on the carriage layout. Has the capacity been increased for this version of the V Locity?
    Posted: 11 Aug 2019 14:59

    Last edited by Duncs on 11 Aug 2019 15:02; edited 1 time in total
      changer Station Master

    No provision for bikes I take it.
    Posted: 11 Aug 2019 17:25
      Nightfire Minister for Railways

    Location: Gippsland
    No provision for bikes I take it.
    changer
    Unless there Is a sign next to the door stating that bikes are not permitted, I guess you have to sit In the longitude seats holding onto your bike (If a handicapped person requires one of the seats, well you probably need to stand and hold your bike near the doorway)
    Posted: 11 Aug 2019 17:55
      Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

    Location:
    The smaller toilet and bike/luggage space has been replaced by more seats and a small luggage space like the ones near the drivers cabin.
    The set at Wendouree was coupled to an older Vlocity so cyclists could use that one or used the larger disabled space in the new one.
    The new sets have labels above the door, there's a wheelchair and pram door, and three luggage doors.
    Posted: 11 Aug 2019 18:21

    Last edited by Gauntlet on 11 Aug 2019 18:42; edited 1 time in total
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    The smaller toilet and bike/luggage space has been replaced by more seats and a small luggage space like the ones near the drivers cabin.
    The set at Wendouree was coupled to an older Vlocity so cyclists could use that one or used the larger disabled space in the new one.
    The new sets have labels above the door, there's a wheelchair and pram door, and three luggage doors.
    Gauntlet
    These 4 orphan sets  76 - 77 -  78  -  79  have seated capacity  of  236  vs  ordinary sets  222.

    Seats are much narrower less upholstery and the bit you sit on is as hard as a rock.  Aisles are wider so people can stand two abreast in the wider aisle .  

    All seats have fold down tables albit they are much smaller than other sets .

    VLP are going to regret these orphans in due course .  OK for  Wyndham Vale and  Bacchus Marsh but pretty poor level of comfort for longer Commuter runs .
    Posted: 11 Aug 2019 22:23
      speedemon08 Mary

    Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
    The smaller toilet and bike/luggage space has been replaced by more seats and a small luggage space like the ones near the drivers cabin.
    The set at Wendouree was coupled to an older Vlocity so cyclists could use that one or used the larger disabled space in the new one.
    The new sets have labels above the door, there's a wheelchair and pram door, and three luggage doors.
    These 4 orphan sets  76 - 77 -  78  -  79  have seated capacity  of  236  vs  ordinary sets  222.

    Seats are much narrower less upholstery and the bit you sit on is as hard as a rock.  Aisles are wider so people can stand two abreast in the wider aisle .  

    All seats have fold down tables albit they are much smaller than other sets .

    VLP are going to regret these orphans in due course .  OK for  Wyndham Vale and  Bacchus Marsh but pretty poor level of comfort for longer Commuter runs .
    kuldalai
    They brought them mainly for the shorter runs anyway....
    Posted: 12 Aug 2019 04:45
      Duncs Chief Commissioner

    The smaller toilet and bike/luggage space has been replaced by more seats and a small luggage space like the ones near the drivers cabin.
    The set at Wendouree was coupled to an older Vlocity so cyclists could use that one or used the larger disabled space in the new one.
    The new sets have labels above the door, there's a wheelchair and pram door, and three luggage doors.
    These 4 orphan sets  76 - 77 -  78  -  79  have seated capacity  of  236  vs  ordinary sets  222.

    Seats are much narrower less upholstery and the bit you sit on is as hard as a rock.  Aisles are wider so people can stand two abreast in the wider aisle .  

    All seats have fold down tables albit they are much smaller than other sets .

    VLP are going to regret these orphans in due course .  OK for  Wyndham Vale and  Bacchus Marsh but pretty poor level of comfort for longer Commuter runs .
    They brought them mainly for the shorter runs anyway....
    speedemon08
    They can always correct their mistake by refurbishing the interior if required.
    Posted: 12 Aug 2019 12:30
      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    Plenty of Metro pax on Comeng seats for comparable lengths of time.

    They seem quite adequate for the job they do.

    At some point Geelong and Ballarat will have to realise they aren't catching "country trains" any more.
    Posted: 12 Aug 2019 12:40
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    Plenty of Metro pax on Comeng seats for comparable lengths of time.

    They seem quite adequate for the job they do.

    At some point Geelong and Ballarat will have to realise they aren't catching "country trains" any more.
    potatoinmymouth

    I've never considered V'Locity's to be 'country trains', because I've travelled extensively on VR country trains over a few decades.

    Ballarat, Geelong, Bendigo et al are served by what I consider to be Interurban trains.

    Mike.
    Posted: 12 Aug 2019 12:48
      Lockspike Deputy Commissioner


    I've never considered V'Locity's to be 'country trains', because I've travelled extensively on VR country trains over a few decades.

    Ballarat, Geelong, Bendigo et al are served by what I consider to be Interurban trains.

    Mike.
    The Vinelander
    The interurban concept in well understood in NSW. V/Line seems to struggle with this, and maybe having to perform suburban services as well, is an added distraction they don't need
    Posted: 12 Aug 2019 19:27
      DalyWaters Chief Commissioner


    I've never considered V'Locity's to be 'country trains', because I've travelled extensively on VR country trains over a few decades.

    Ballarat, Geelong, Bendigo et al are served by what I consider to be Interurban trains.

    Mike.
    The Vinelander

    The N sets were built during the "New Deal" in the early 1980s as the interurban cars to do runs as far as Geelong, Ballarat, etc.

    A set of decent cars for long distance were supposed to be built then but got kyboshed with budget restraints.

    The acceptance by the public of N sets being better than non air con wooden cars meant that V/Line have got away with running interurban cars on long distance trains for 35 years now.
    Posted: 13 Aug 2019 09:03

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