Bye Bye to George Pell

 
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
There is no evidence that suggests he did it on a train, so I will post it here.

Pell has been convicted - back in December even, but it was suppressed, order lifted today.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-26/george-pell-guilty-child-sexual-abuse-court-trial/10837564

Throw him to the Wolves, Roman style.


BUT, sadly, he probably wont even get Jail time - I hope my guess is wrong.

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
They got him.

Is this a separate finding to that being committed for trial later this year?
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
They got him.

Is this a separate finding to that being committed for trial later this year?
bevans
Oh who knows how many cases are going on, seems the lawyers are good at convincing the Courts to supress publication.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Jail time, general population.
Karma.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Seems he as to appear in regard to another case tomorrow, but he wont be leaving via the front door afterwards as the Judge has said that he will then be "Remanded in Custody". Seems his Bail was continued back in December so that he could have a knee operation, but tomorrow he needs to bring his toothbrush to court with him.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
A lot of previously suppressed material has now come to light, including an item that Pell was formally expelled from his positions at the Vatican last December when the guilty verdicts were fiirst delivered. Until today, the media was reporting that he had stood down due to advancing age. His bail was indeed extended for him to have a knee replacement in Sydney. It seems he is to be remanded in custody tomorrow.
One can now recall jounalist John Silvester's description of Pell as "an arrogant prick with all the empathy of a polar bear stalking a baby seal."
If he does end up in prison, he'll be a marked man. Jail populations don't like "Rock Spiders" as paedophiles are commonly known, and the fact that Pell is a priest will make him worse in the eyes of many.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
What surprises me is that the Media managed to keep quiet (yes, they were under threat of punishment if they did, but it doesn't even seem to have leaked out Overseas), especially seeing that it appears that many people were in the Court when the verdict was announced. All managed to muzzle themselves.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

What surprises me is that the Media managed to keep quiet (yes, they were under threat of punishment if they did, but it doesn't even seem to have leaked out Overseas), especially seeing that it appears that many people were in the Court when the verdict was announced. All managed to muzzle themselves.
mikesyd
It was all over Twitter in late-December.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

They got him.

Is this a separate finding to that being committed for trial later this year?
Oh who knows how many cases are going on, seems the lawyers are good at convincing the Courts to supress publication.
mikesyd
The ABC has run a helpful explainer piece on this.

A suppression order is entirely routine business when the same defendant is scheduled to be on trial twice in quick succession, to prevent the publicity of the first trial compromising the second one.

Now the second set of charges has been dropped, the order has been lifted.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I wonder when "Cardinal; the rise and fall of George Pell" will reappear in the bookshops. I bought a copy and read it before the book was withdrawn from sale. Now that the trial and verdict are done, it would make good reading for those who haven't already seen it.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
And to think, the Pope had the absolute nerve to appoint him to a high ranking position at the Vatican!! the Catholic Church has a long way to come in terms of respect!

Kind Regards
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
You all realise this wasn't limited to within the religious orders. For some adults their suffering goes unmentioned.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
You all realise this wasn't limited to within the religious orders. For some adults their suffering goes unmentioned.
"Groundrelay"
Your point is ? ? ?
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
You all realise this wasn't limited to within the religious orders. For some adults their suffering goes unmentioned.
Your point is ? ? ?
Valvegear
Just to bear in mind children from 'good' families were also abused but they're left pretty much to deal with it themselves. I 'll leave it at that Sad
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Just to bear in mind children from 'good' families were also abused but they're left pretty much to deal with it themselves. I 'll leave it at that
Groundrelay

OK - if it makes you happy, but I still don't understand your point. I don't think anybody has ever said that the Roman Catholic Church is the only hiding place for paedophiles.
  Bethungra Train Controller

I was truly disgusted when I read what he did to those two alter boys at St Patricks in 1996.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Okay, I'm going to be the provocateur here as usual and say I'm not entirely convinced. The evidence of one person against another - a single witness. Would have been really crowded in a Cathedral during mass, surely a really terrible time to choose your target if you are indeed gunning for sex with a choir boy - the place is crawling with people. I'm not a Catholic myself, I have no doubt in many other cases that the perpetrators are completely guilty as with many other cases where priests like Risdale et al were found guilty and the Church complicit. If Pell was indeed a child predator it seems like a really stupid thing to do late in life, he was already in his fifties and a very senior member of the church by then.

Now before I get lectured, I'm not doubting the veracity of the witness - I'm just saying there's some things that aren't consistent with what we know about paedophiles and how they operate.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Don, Guilty on all charges. Our justice system works as intended.

You bang on about China, and still question the rule of law here.

There is no pleasing you.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Okay, I'm going to be the provocateur here as usual and say I'm not entirely convinced. The evidence of one person against another - a single witness. Would have been really crowded in a Cathedral during mass, surely a really terrible time to choose your target if you are indeed gunning for sex with a choir boy - the place is crawling with people. I'm not a Catholic myself, I have no doubt in many other cases that the perpetrators are completely guilty as with many other cases where priests like Risdale et al were found guilty and the Church complicit. If Pell was indeed a child predator it seems like a really stupid thing to do late in life, he was already in his fifties and a very senior member of the church by then.

Now before I get lectured, I'm not doubting the veracity of the witness - I'm just saying there's some things that aren't consistent with what we know about paedophiles and how they operate.
don_dunstan
Part of me does wonder if it's a stitch-up and it wouldn't surprise me if Pell's appeal is successful.

But there are other aspects that suggest an abuse of power by Pell.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Don, Guilty on all charges. Our justice system works as intended.

You bang on about China, and still question the rule of law here.

There is no pleasing you.
michaelgm
Michael, part of me wonders if the jury were influenced by this photo of Pell defending one of the worst paedophile priests operating in Australia ever, Gerard Risdale - a few years earlier than he's accused of committing these sex offenses.  

I think Pell had no choice but to defend Risdale because of his position in the Church but that's no reason to damn him 26 years after that trial; I think people are confusing that with being a paedophile per se and it may have denied him a fair trial. Just a reflection from someone who doesn't really have an opinion either way on his guilt or innocence.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Having not been in the Court, and therefore not privy to all of the evidence, I can't make a judgement about the jury's verdict.

However, in all the discussion about "One man's word against another's", it is pertinent to note that Pell did not give evidence, and therefore could not be cross examined by the prosecution. He presented a prepared statement which could not be tested.
This is a common tactic by Richter QC, who usually wants his client to shut up and let him do the talking. There have been several notable trials in Victoria over the past few years where he has used this ploy (which, of course, he is entitled to do.)

However,I think that any jury is entitled to ask why the accused will not give evidence on his own behalf and submit to cross examination, and draw any inference it likes from that refusal. If an accused will not actively defend himself, what does this imply?

Let's take just one example:- it was claimed by the defence that Pell could not have been in the Sacristy alone because it is the custom to have another priest there as well. This is their usual practice, but is only theory in this context. By not giving sworn evidence, Pell did not state that another priest was actually present, or deny that he was alone. I'd wonder why.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Valvegear, at the very least, it implies that your earlier post with John Silvesters description was spot on.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
He has copped quite an earful as he walked from his car to the Court door this morning.

Will he return the same way? - time will tell.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
If the Vatican does not defrock him the prisoners will.

if you read the paper today and what happened I do find it odd that he would be alone with two alter boys in a busy church on a sunday with no one else around.  There would have to be other people around the church as a Sunday mass is a very big deal with lots of people.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Having not been in the Court, and therefore not privy to all of the evidence, I can't make a judgement about the jury's verdict.
Valvegear
There were two juries; the first one couldn't reach a verdict and was dismissed.

I agree with you about Richter, he's an incredibly clever lawyer and wouldn't have wanted his client on the stand - although it's not uncommon for the accused person to not testify at all.
If an accused will not actively defend himself, what does this imply? Let's take just one example:- it was claimed by the defence that Pell could not have been in the Sacristy alone because it is the custom to have another priest there as well. This is their usual practice, but is only theory in this context. By not giving sworn evidence, Pell did not state that another priest was actually present, or deny that he was alone. I'd wonder why.
Valvegear
Again, my reservation is that we're talking about a Cathedral after high mass, it wasn't a little country church or a quiet suburban service, there would have been people everywhere and there would have been a routine for everyone to follow. Pell as Bishop is pretty much the focus of the entire ceremony, didn't anyone notice that both him and the thirteen year old choir boys were missing for a while?

Not saying he's innocent, just that I have reservations - especially given the fact that the first jury couldn't reach a verdict.

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