PLA entering Hong Kong?

 
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
And I'm Princess Margaret.
Hey! Now you can tell us why you didn't marry Peter Townsend.Laughing
Valvegear
Saw a docco on this recently and I believe that the (newly coronated) Queen gave her permission to marry Peter Townsend but asked that she wait a year.

Margaret did as she was told but then changed her mind by the time the year was up... that's what the docco was saying anyway.

Sponsored advertisement

  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Seriously, Could you have picked any more basket case economies, why not Venezuela?
Cuba is funded by tourism trying to save its economy after the USSR dropped it and Cuba's economy collapsed. As income less than $30/mth Average age of cars there is something like 60 years old. Vietnam is funded by foreign, read mostly western investment and booming tourism, again heavily western. Average income is around $200/mth, Almost no one can afford a car China (which is neither socialist nor communist), is funded by foreign investment and turning itself into a slave factory for western demand mostly low cost items and copying capitalism and as such has more billionaires than EU and US combined. Average income $1000/mth If you don't work, you die.
They are doing very well in-fact considering the superpower the funded them till the 80's is gone and the nation that perviously made up 90% of its exports has had an embargo on them for over 50 years. And also Considering they're outliving the Americans now and survived that shows the resilience of their economic model. Tourism is now part of its economy. You also ignore the Successes of mixed economies such as NEP USSR and Yugoslavia (yes I'm aware that one was heavily loan based)
Thanks for the correction on Vietnam.
Also, that's why I called china Sellouts (Ha, Ha Money Joke).
Fact is few democratic free market economies have needed bail outs and their people live in significantly higher standard of living than nearly all socialist and communist countries. Just need to look at how life has improved in eastern Europe since the early 90's after a rough decade. Too much money wasted on socialist ideals that simple don't work and while they claim to focus on humanity, they ignore the very fabric of human thinking. ie people are naturally lazy and will take hand outs over work any day if they don't have the option to excel. Back home, go through the financial position of Left vs Right wing govt at loss of power across the country at both state and Fed level, it may surprise you, hint social welfare programs need funding and borrowing from others is not the solution.
Doubtful, Large portions of Africa and Asia say otherwise to that and they use the same model. Your comment on Eastern Europe However is untrue, Living standard and life expectancy have declined since the collapse of the eastern block along with economic growth. Unemployment and Poverty have skyrocketed since the fall of the Curtin. The Counter argument to that generic comment is that people are naturally Altruistic, Both of these arguments are inherently flawed and can have holes easily shot in them. I never claimed that Borrowing was the solution to anything, state owned industry is and income caps I think is.


If you Wish to reply do so here, as this is off topic
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11399271-0-asc-s75.htm

Just Waiting for the Tanks to be sent in under the Guise of 'restoring order and stability'.
Dangersdan707
Tanks will not roll into Hong Kong any time soon as the Mainland Chinese are still trying to woo the Taiwanese to join up with the promise of a 2 state policy like Honkers. If they invade Honkers then the chances of the Taiwanese coming to the party are rather slim.

I am always intrigued way so many migrants from Baltic countries etc are so far right to the extent they have had a very deleterious affect on the Liberal party. Anyone recall Fontana Films and its association with far right Liberal Party members from Croatia? Could it be that so many of them were Nazi collaborators and needed to get out real quick before the Ruskies sorted them out real quick: usually by firing squad.

I had the misfortune to go to high school with Croatians and they were a really crazy group who hated the Serbians with a vengeance: and only because the Serbians were mostly pro-Russian during WW2.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Seriously, Could you have picked any more basket case economies, why not Venezuela?
Cuba is funded by tourism trying to save its economy after the USSR dropped it and Cuba's economy collapsed. As income less than $30/mth Average age of cars there is something like 60 years old. Vietnam is funded by foreign, read mostly western investment and booming tourism, again heavily western. Average income is around $200/mth, Almost no one can afford a car China (which is neither socialist nor communist), is funded by foreign investment and turning itself into a slave factory for western demand mostly low cost items and copying capitalism and as such has more billionaires than EU and US combined. Average income $1000/mth If you don't work, you die.
They are doing very well in-fact considering the superpower the funded them till the 80's is gone and the nation that perviously made up 90% of its exports has had an embargo on them for over 50 years. And also Considering they're outliving the Americans now and survived that shows the resilience of their economic model. Tourism is now part of its economy. You also ignore the Successes of mixed economies such as NEP USSR and Yugoslavia (yes I'm aware that one was heavily loan based)
Thanks for the correction on Vietnam.
Also, that's why I called china Sellouts (Ha, Ha Money Joke).
Fact is few democratic free market economies have needed bail outs and their people live in significantly higher standard of living than nearly all socialist and communist countries. Just need to look at how life has improved in eastern Europe since the early 90's after a rough decade. Too much money wasted on socialist ideals that simple don't work and while they claim to focus on humanity, they ignore the very fabric of human thinking. ie people are naturally lazy and will take hand outs over work any day if they don't have the option to excel. Back home, go through the financial position of Left vs Right wing govt at loss of power across the country at both state and Fed level, it may surprise you, hint social welfare programs need funding and borrowing from others is not the solution.
Doubtful, Large portions of Africa and Asia say otherwise to that and they use the same model. Your comment on Eastern Europe However is untrue, Living standard and life expectancy have declined since the collapse of the eastern block along with economic growth. Unemployment and Poverty have skyrocketed since the fall of the Curtin. The Counter argument to that generic comment is that people are naturally Altruistic, Both of these arguments are inherently flawed and can have holes easily shot in them. I never claimed that Borrowing was the solution to anything, state owned industry is and income caps I think is.


If you Wish to reply do so here, as this is off topic
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11399271-0-asc-s75.htm

Just Waiting for the Tanks to be sent in under the Guise of 'restoring order and stability'.
Dangersdan707
Doing very well, country's average income is $30/month? And this is only after the govt has been quietly removing its old Socialist ideology and relatives in Florida sending home hard currency. If they had been a democracy their average incomes would likely be at least 100 to 1000 times higher and their infrastructure wouldn't be in a decrepit state.

The life expectancy is on the back bone of two things. Well for a start is barely 1 year long. But during its times being funded by the USSR, they built up a half decent medical system for which medical tourism was a major source of income. Once the USSR collapsed and Cuba had to survive on its own, the medical system collapsed and the Dr's left. The lack of income means they have a half decent diet.

Their economic model is hardly a model, its a basket case. Have you been there?

The USSR went broke, nuff said. Oh yes, my dad once went to an industrial city in Russia where the air was unsafe to breath and their equipment needed special protection from corrosion from the air. That was in the 90's.

Yugo fell apart broke. The countries of Croatia, Slovenia and I think MAcadaona have embraced capitalism building decent infrastructure and jobs that are no longer one step above that of a Serf. Serbia was sidelined until recently for political reasons.

Sorry, living standards have improved dramatically in the former Eastern Bloc. There is some aspects of draconian rule that is always helpful but those countries are lagging the improvements in the west. Smoking and alcoholism is still higher than western countries as is occupational deaths and disease and of course this will take at least another 25-40 years to filter out of the stats. In 1990, a common way of travel in many parts of Eastern Europe was with something with four feet, or aging buses and trains on windy roads. Times have changed, alot and I've been through many Eastern European countries.

Yeah, unemployment is so bad in places like Poland the govt is now offering its youth tax free incomes to stay. Most of the former Eastern Bloc all suffer from the same issue, their young people know salaries are higher in the west and leave so these countries are suffering massive population decline. Ask the UK about that one.

Overall your comment that the standard of living in the Eastern Bloc countries is worse now than during the USSR era is very wrong.

Most of Africa can hardly be relied on for data from either direction.

Edit, sorry I didn't see the redirection until now.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Tanks will not roll into Hong Kong any time soon as the Mainland Chinese are still trying to woo the Taiwanese to join up with the promise of a 2 state policy like Honkers. If they invade Honkers then the chances of the Taiwanese coming to the party are rather slim.
nswtrains
The Taiwanese will never join the PRC, they're pretty much ideologically opposed to each other. Taiwan is the last vestige of the old ruling KMT which is why the Chinese Communist Party still wants it (officially the war still isn't over you know) but telling 23 million Taiwanese that they have to join an oppressive totalitarian system will go down like a cup of cold vomit.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Perhaps this is looking a bit better in hindsight, as silly as it is. Razz


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/03/uk-officials-discussed-resettling-55m-hong-kong-chinese-in-northern-ireland
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Tanks will not roll into Hong Kong any time soon as the Mainland Chinese are still trying to woo the Taiwanese to join up with the promise of a 2 state policy like Honkers. If they invade Honkers then the chances of the Taiwanese coming to the party are rather slim.
The Taiwanese will never join the PRC, they're pretty much ideologically opposed to each other. Taiwan is the last vestige of the old ruling KMT which is why the Chinese Communist Party still wants it (officially the war still isn't over you know) but telling 23 million Taiwanese that they have to join an oppressive totalitarian system will go down like a cup of cold vomit.
don_dunstan
Correct indeed however on how Taiwan will never willing join the PRC, However You're not quite right when it comes to the Kuomintang. The KMT has split multiple times during its history with 2 of them still existing. The Big one on Taiwan, that was a oppressive totalitarian state till the 80's that was backed by the USA, and was Chiang Ki Sheiks faction of the government. Essentially Taiwan already has Experienced all of that from the 50's to the 80's along with varying attempts to wipe out the Native Culture and language, its not all sun and roses.

 A left wing CCP Puppet Now the 'Revolutionary KMT', Split from Chiang during the Civil War and sided with the CCP is still active on the mainland and is the second biggest 'registered political party' (A CCP Puppet). It Had Sun Yet Sen Wife (Soong Ching-lin) as its leader for a while and Even had people serving from as vice chairman under Mao and Were at times temporary figure heads. Its Pretty interesting to read on though it's a CCP puppet.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Tanks will not roll into Hong Kong any time soon.
nswtrains
The Chinese government has been amazingly restrained considering these aren't exactly peaceful demonstrations. After all they're not reacting the way US authorities did to civil rights and anti-war demonstrations of the 1960/70's.

When it comes to civil disobedience does the cause justify the means?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Tanks will not roll into Hong Kong any time soon.
nswtrains
I agree.

Never underestimate the ability of the Chinese to play the long game.

The Chinese government has been amazingly restrained considering these aren't exactly peaceful demonstrations.
Groundrelay
I suspect that the Chinese had a direct hand in the escalation of what were originally quite civil demonstrations, for the dual purposes of making their response so far look restrained and opening the door for a future decision to 'restore order.'

After all they're not reacting the way US authorities did to civil rights and anti-war demonstrations of the 1960/70's.
Groundrelay
What was astounding about the way that US authorities responded in that time was that they did it in front of the national and international media!

The Chinese did worse than that in 1989 (that time when nothing happened!!!) but have since learned the value of good optics. Good optics can be retained by a combination of methods - doing the right thing, clamping down on things before they get too ugly, keeping things out of sight when they do get ugly, or influencing media coverage when ugly stuff can't be hidden.

They will know that lining up their tanks at that stadium in Shenzhen was an error which compromised the strategy, probably the result of a local commander not considering the possibility of overhead imagery.

When it comes to civil disobedience does the cause justify the means?
Groundrelay
Three points on this:
1. Demonstrations and civil disobedience are not the same thing.
2. Surely it also depends on the level of civility in the disobedience?
3. In the cases where the end does justify the means (i.e. the bad law eventually gets overturned) then it is inevitable that many people will come to that conclusion only after the campaign has succeeded.

Civil disobedience isn't really a thing here as Aussies are too compliant for that. No other western nation would roll over and accept the number of intrusive national security laws we have here, not even the USA (which is why their intelligence agencies operate outside the law).
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I agree. Never underestimate the ability of the Chinese to play the long game.
Justapassenger

Nup, I think otherwise. look at Whats Happened in East Turkestan, millions sent to 'reeducation camps', villages and mosques flattened ect,ect. It's Only a matter of time before the PLA are used to restore order. (They're already garrisoning Honk Kong!)

What was astounding about the way that US authorities responded in that time was that they did it in front of the national and international media! The Chinese did worse than that in 1989 (that time when nothing happened!!!) but have since learned the value of good optics.
Good optics can be retained by a combination of methods - doing the right thing, clamping down on things before they get too ugly, keeping things out of sight when they do get ugly, or influencing media coverage when ugly stuff can't be hidden.
They will know that lining up their tanks at that stadium in Shenzhen was an error which compromised the strategy, probably the result of a local commander not considering the possibility of overhead imagery.
Just a passenger
Actually, they've admitted this year that 'they did what needed to be done' to restore order and control. It's all still happening in the USA, its just not widely publicised by the press. I think that the Stadium in Shenzhen was just a show of force or a warning to the rebellious minds on Hong Kong. Its going to get uglier I think.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The Chinese screwed up in 1989, we know it and they certainly know it. For example. go to the square today and you can see the knock on effects of this still. No solider or guard in the square (there are are many) is armed. At the same time you cannot get in there without your ID being scanned (Chinese their ID cars, foreigners their passports) and your body and personal items being scanned.

So I think if we are expecting the Army to come in and do a repeat of 1989, no it won't happen. The Chinese govt knows in this day and age any army shooting unarmed people interactions will see those images go nationwide before they can pull the plug on the internet. The party is already on the nose of the average Chinese, they both know it. The Chinese people don't trust their govt, they know they are lied to and treat the Party propaganda as a joke (personal experience and they are not shy about it) and they are just one major excuse from a full scale uprising away.

I suspect the Chinese govt will attempt to see if the demonstrators patience and will power will wane first, however if the demonstrators go full scale, then yes the army will come in to keep the peace.

Oh, that cop that fired that gun, at a guess, he is no longer on the streets. If someone had been killed or even wounded, the outcry would have been catastrophic.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
The end game here is that the people want that extradition bill totally ripped up, and for Hong Kong Chief Executive, Carrie Lam to resign, both of these I doubt will happen, so while these things continue not to happen, the protests will get louder, and louder, the protests cannot last forever! Beijing will blink sooner, or later, interesting times ahead me thinks.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

MTR in Hong Kong has seen a lot of damage over the weekend.  Interesting to note that some of the molotov cocktail throwing 'protesters' were likely undercover police officers:
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
This Would be Incredibly Embarrassing for the CCP having to tolerate this to appease the West. They will eventually put there foot down on this movement as they've done to any who threaten or Challenge the regime to any major extent. If they Can get away with what's Happened in Tibet and the millions in 'reeducation' in East Turkestan, they can get away with this essentially unopposed. They will crackdown on this eventually as they desire a united china, politicly and culturally homogeneous. Call me pessimistic but I can only see this ending badly for the Hong Kongers.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
Things are going from bad to worse it seems in Hong Kong, over this past weekend has seen the worst rioting since the protests began, violent street brawls have erupted between pro Beijing supporters, and Hong Kong supporters, in one instance, a Chinese guy was almost beaten to death by an out of control mob, simply because he professed to being Chinese, that is NOT RIGHT!!, violence doesn't get you anywhere, the person is in a critical condition in hospital, I get the feeling if this continues, Beijing will come and crush the movement, then they will be sorry!!
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Things are going from bad to worse it seems in Hong Kong, over this past weekend has seen the worst rioting since the protests began, violent street brawls have erupted between pro Beijing supporters, and Hong Kong supporters, in one instance, a Chinese guy was almost beaten to death by an out of control mob, simply because he professed to being Chinese, that is NOT RIGHT!!, violence doesn't get you anywhere, the person is in a critical condition in hospital, I get the feeling if this continues, Beijing will come and crush the movement, then they will be sorry!!
lsrailfan
Once it goes violent and destructive with innocent peoples lives and property being compromised, in my view this crosses a line and opens the door for hard and fast clamp down. Bring on the PLA!
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
This Hong Kong protesting is getting beyond the joke. Innocent people being physically harmed. Public property being damaged beyond repair. Tourists refusing to visit the city. Endless disruption to transport systems. PLA please standby in case your peacekeeping powers are needed.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
This Hong Kong protesting is getting beyond the joke. Innocent people being physically harmed. Public property being damaged beyond repair. Tourists refusing to visit the city. Endless disruption to transport systems. PLA please standby in case your peacekeeping powers are needed.
Heath

Absolutely NFI
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
This Hong Kong protesting is getting beyond the joke. Innocent people being physically harmed. Public property being damaged beyond repair. Tourists refusing to visit the city. Endless disruption to transport systems. PLA please standby in case your peacekeeping powers are needed.
Heath
And yet you claim to be an Anarchist. @don_dunstan will rip into you, as a 'Chinese bot' as he did to me, you seem to be closer to than I have. Spouting the party line will get you lots of social points or whatever they are now called
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Hasn't the proposed legislation to allow extradition to mainland China been shelved? I thought so.
Protesters may have achieved their objective at least in the short term.

When locked in phone box with a gorilla, don't poke it in the eyes.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Things are going from bad to worse it seems in Hong Kong, over this past weekend has seen the worst rioting since the protests began, violent street brawls have erupted between pro Beijing supporters, and Hong Kong supporters, in one instance, a Chinese guy was almost beaten to death by an out of control mob, simply because he professed to being Chinese, that is NOT RIGHT!!, violence doesn't get you anywhere, the person is in a critical condition in hospital, I get the feeling if this continues, Beijing will come and crush the movement, then they will be sorry!!
Once it goes violent and destructive with innocent peoples lives and property being compromised, in my view this crosses a line and opens the door for hard and fast clamp down. Bring on the PLA!
RTT_Rules

Time to give this a bump.

So both of you are in effect saying the the PLAs suppression of the 1989 Tianamen protests was justified?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Things are going from bad to worse it seems in Hong Kong, over this past weekend has seen the worst rioting since the protests began, violent street brawls have erupted between pro Beijing supporters, and Hong Kong supporters, in one instance, a Chinese guy was almost beaten to death by an out of control mob, simply because he professed to being Chinese, that is NOT RIGHT!!, violence doesn't get you anywhere, the person is in a critical condition in hospital, I get the feeling if this continues, Beijing will come and crush the movement, then they will be sorry!!
Once it goes violent and destructive with innocent peoples lives and property being compromised, in my view this crosses a line and opens the door for hard and fast clamp down. Bring on the PLA!

Time to give this a bump.

So both of you are in effect saying the the PLAs suppression of the 1989 Tianamen protests was justified?
bingley hall
Nope and best to avoid changing my words.

Tienanmen had not gone violent, the PLA responded in a way that will never be repeated again. They know they F'ed up, even if they won't pubicaly admit it, but likewise they have also made changes to prevent a repeat protest in the square.

HK, if protesters start hurting innocent people and damaging property, then any reasonable means necessary should be used to squash the rebellion and restore law and order quickly, but force should not be over the top, ie shooting unarmed and non violent people in the street.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Hasn't the proposed legislation to allow extradition to mainland China been shelved? I thought so.
Protesters may have achieved their objective at least in the short term.

When locked in phone box with a gorilla, don't poke it in the eyes.
michaelgm
I think the law was simply side lined, the govt did not commit to never again and they want whats her name in charge to resign. She either won't or is not allowed.

HK people knew that the one country two systems is only for 50 years and are looking beyond as China slowly changes HK from British to One party rule way of doing things. They are using this issue as the line in the sand.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Meanwhile in America, land of the free or whatever, hold up a sign supporting freedom in Hong Kong and you'll get booted from a game:
https://6abc.com/amp/sports/sixers-fan-supporting-hong-hong-ejected-from-preseason-game/5604293/

The fear within the NBA of losing money because of protests against Chinese tyranny has them cowering in submission to the CCP.

Pathetic.

Google "Daryl Morey" for more information...
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Meanwhile in America, land of the free or whatever, hold up a sign supporting freedom in Hong Kong and you'll get booted from a game:
https://6abc.com/amp/sports/sixers-fan-supporting-hong-hong-ejected-from-preseason-game/5604293/

The fear within the NBA of losing money because of protests against Chinese tyranny has them cowering in submission to the CCP.

Pathetic.

Google "Daryl Morey" for more information...
Carnot
They All want accesses to that large Chinese market, and are willing to sell their soul to do so. Same is happening in video games too, with players being Banned for political opinions being voiced in overmatch iirc.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: bevans, Big J, RTT_Rules

Display from: