Designing Victoria’s Next Generation Trams And Trains

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 23 Sep 2019 10:10
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Now this is completely confusing.  We have what appears to be two or three themes of vlocity units being considered right now.

1. We have the current contract extensions for additional trailer units and also new sets on the current design.

2. We have a new design which is heavier for other lines

3. We have longer distance variants being considered.

This press releases says very little and is more promotional than substance.  The new longer distance services appear not to be already given as VLOCITY and more on the concept of what it should look like form a manufacturer.

We need a public consultation and process for the public to decide what should be included in the new rolling stock and this may not (from the article) appear to be a Vlocity or at least there is a chance it will not be.

Open the process to public submissions and get the public something they will use rather than what the operator thinks the public needs.

This process is already off track.

Designing Victoria’s Next Generation Trams And Trains

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  Duncs Chief Commissioner

As I read this I think the government is actually looking into alternatives to a Vlocity  train. So they are either serious about an alternative to Bombardier, which is quite possible. Or they are using this announcement to make Bombardier lift its game. I think it is 50/50 between these two scenarios for now.

Given that NSW has awarded the long haul train contract to CAF, there may now be a potential for an alternative design to the Vlocity.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
As I read this I think the government is actually looking into alternatives to a Vlocity  train. So they are either serious about an alternative to Bombardier, which is quite possible. Or they are using this announcement to make Bombardier lift its game. I think it is 50/50 between these two scenarios for now.

Given that NSW has awarded the long haul train contract to CAF, there may now be a potential for an alternative design to the Vlocity.
Duncs

The Andrews government may be looking at alternatives to V'Locity's however Bombardier have become so entrenched in partnershiop with the government and their product is reliable and popular with the travelling public, I find it almost impossible to think there could be an actual alternative under active consideration.

NSW being NSW they have gone down their own path and that's understandable as each state is like a different country when it comes to things PT.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Mike what makes you think the public are happy with the current vlocity design?

I actually believe (and agree with Duncs) the government is considering all options by working with multiple vendors but is this real or just a smoke screen?

Also, back to my original point, it does NOT appear the public view is being taken into account with the new design.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The Vlocity has been in production now for over 15 years, it is only natural that a new generation of train is designed, ordered and built.

Given that being built or assembled in Victoria is a given, that gives us Bombardier/Dandenong, Alstom/Ballarat East and Evolution/Newport as possible candidates. I could see Alstom being given one (probably an off the shelf tram design)  if a seperate announcement about X'Trapolis 2.0 doesn't follow shortly.

I'd imagine that Bombardier's maintenance contract wont be going anywhere soon. Depending on the design of the next gen, we could see them separated out by lines and maintenance facilities on the down being dedicated to the new trains.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Mike what makes you think the public are happy with the current vlocity design?

I actually believe (and agree with Duncs) the government is considering all options by working with multiple vendors but is this real or just a smoke screen?

Also, back to my original point, it does NOT appear the public view is being taken into account with the new design.
bevans
bevans, what makes you think the public are unhappy with the V'lo ?

I'd say the public would not give a Rats, what type of train it is. The best train for the public is one that is reliable, reasonably comfortable to sit or stand in / on and goes from A to B without any drama.

The V'lo is certainly reliable and being in operation for as many years as it has, you'd say very durable as well.

There are some members of the public aren't happy with anything, bloody whinger's !

BigShunter.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Longer distance services need something new with better on board catering and first class.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
The Vlocity has been in production now for over 15 years, it is only natural that a new generation of train is designed, ordered and built.

Given that being built or assembled in Victoria is a given, that gives us Bombardier/Dandenong, Alstom/Ballarat East and Evolution/Newport as possible candidates. I could see Alstom being given one (probably an off the shelf tram design)  if a seperate announcement about X'Trapolis 2.0 doesn't follow shortly.

I'd imagine that Bombardier's maintenance contract wont be going anywhere soon. Depending on the design of the next gen, we could see them separated out by lines and maintenance facilities on the down being dedicated to the new trains.
TOQ-1
There is additional information available at the DoT website.

There are two separate contracts up for grabs:
  • New trams to follow on from the E class. There's some ambiguity as to how large these trams will be but my money would be on them having a similar size to the Es. This order will enable the retirement of the Z3, A1/A2 & B2 trams so that Yarra Trams can actually make some progress with meeting its Disability Discrimination Act obligations.
  • New regional trains, which are specified as 'commuter'-type trains and not long distance sets. They are intended to replace the H sets and provide for additional commuter growth. N sets will be replaced with Long Distance VLocity sets as has already been established in previous Victorian budgets. There is no mention of whether the sets will be diesel-mechanical or diesel-electric but there could be a possibility that the latter will be favoured as it could tie into electrification plans for Geelong & Ballarat by making them electro-diesel capable.

Bombardier is unlikely to win both contracts but it is quite likely that they might win one of them. It's unclear as to whether Alstom will hold onto the Ballarat North Workshops long enough for them to bother including it in a bid package given the gap in work between 2020 and a possible 2023 contract for trams or regional commuter trains. Downer/CRRC at Newport could do either contract given that HCMT assembly will be tapering off by then. I wouldn't be surprised if there are greenfields regional assembly sites mooted by other vendors for the regional trains (and possibly even the trams) however.
  501M Train Controller

Location: The Borough
Longer distance services need something new with better on board catering and first class.
freightgate

The seats in the V/Locitys are the same size as the first class ones in N sets.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Possible further information on the new trams: PTV CEO Jerome Weimar stated on his regular guest spot on Jon Faine's morning talkback show on ABC Radio Melbourne on Tuesday 17 September that "[we're] exploring future options for smaller low floor trams" (57m35s timestamp) as the E class trams are unable to fit into several of the older depots.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Mike what makes you think the public are happy with the current vlocity design?
bevans

What makes you think they are not happy Question

OK as a 160km a day commuter using exclusively V'Locity's I have little to complain about and having recently returned from Europe and also having travelled extensively on the new Hitachi sets operated by GWR, I have a good comparison from travelling on these trains and know that V'Locity's are up there amongst the best in the medium speed regional rolling stock marque.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Longer distance services need something new with better on board catering and first class.
freightgate

What's 'new'...moreover, how a carriage is fitted out has little or no bearing on its motive power.

Mike.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The anti-VLo brigade on this site is laughable. I’m not a fitter or a driver so I’m not qualified to comment on them operationally. But most of the complaints here are about the passenger experience. They’re fine – better than fine, actually, as Mike rightly says. Most of the “we need them to be more like the N/H/E/fixed wheel carriages” is just that, misplaced nostalgia and resistance to change.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Mike what makes you think the public are happy with the current vlocity design?

I actually believe (and agree with Duncs) the government is considering all options by working with multiple vendors but is this real or just a smoke screen?

Also, back to my original point, it does NOT appear the public view is being taken into account with the new design.
bevans, what makes you think the public are unhappy with the V'lo ?

I'd say the public would not give a Rats, what type of train it is. The best train for the public is one that is reliable, reasonably comfortable to sit or stand in / on and goes from A to B without any drama.

The V'lo is certainly reliable and being in operation for as many years as it has, you'd say very durable as well.

There are some members of the public aren't happy with anything, bloody whinger's !

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Hear, hear BigShunter. The V'lo is very reliable. Bevans what are you suggesting for the long distance lines other than the V'lo? I know that some are looking to the Class 800 series currently operating in the UK. Utterly ridiculous suggestion of course. To spend upwards of $60 Million for each set for a total of 14 trains each way daily currently servicing Warrnambool, Albury, Shepparton and Swan Hill services is over kill in the extreme. It is either a long distance version of the V'lo or the rebuilding of old N and Z Carriages together with rebuilt N Class Locos and driving Van trailers fashioned from retired EMU's.

Michael
  traintram Beginner

Bombardier have been give 12 months to design a 2 body E-class, as opposed to a 3 body E-class. I suspect they are ready for a "tender" process as they are ready to unveil.
Traditional E-Class cannot negotiate the curves of the eastern and western suburbs network. There will be no surprises which I think is a good thing. just roll out 20 E class a year for the next 20 years!!!!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
bevans, what makes you think the public are unhappy with the V'lo ?

I'd say the public would not give a Rats, what type of train it is. The best train for the public is one that is reliable, reasonably comfortable to sit or stand in / on and goes from A to B without any drama.

The V'lo is certainly reliable and being in operation for as many years as it has, you'd say very durable as well.
BigShunter

That is a low bar to measure the success of a service don;t you think?  We have an opportunity in Victoria to solicit public input into a new series of services being planned.  This is the perfect opportunity to share the vision with the public and from feedback change/alter "re-imagine" what a better and more publically acceptable service looks like and should be delivered.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

[quote=bevans]That is a low bar to measure the success of a service don;t you think? We have an opportunity in Victoria to solicit public input into a new series of services being planned. This is the perfect opportunity to share the vision with the public and from feedback change/alter "re-imagine" what a better and more publically acceptable service looks like and should be delivered.[/bevans]
The actual passenger experience of the train is pretty much the last thing you’d want to design in this, er, “vision”. A “publicly acceptable service” begins with trains that are a) frequent and reliable to the urban fringe, b) regular, fast and reliable to the commuter belt cities, and c) fast and reliable to the rest of the state. So you plan the service patterns to be developed – suburban stopping trains to Wyndham Vale and Melton, express to Geelong and Ballarat, and so on and so on. Then look at the infrastructure required: pretty obviously 1500V DC to integrate into the suburban network; maybe electrified to G/B to save running costs, and the rest as is. [i]Then[/i] and only then do you start thinking about trains.

Since the fleet needs to keep growing over the next decade while these infrastructure works take place, it makes good sense to adapt existing stock types to keep the rollout fast and cheap. VLos are workhorses, flexible because of their redundancy, and even the oldest units have another 20 years in them. So again, it’s sensible to cascade them with interior modifications onto services currently operated by older stock, when you’re running EMUs to Geelong or whatever.

As I’ve written previously, 100 or so 3-car VLos with a dozen or so 4-car buffet sets (which seems to be roughly the government plan) would be what’s required to operate 20/40/5 on the remaining network once WV and Melton are suburban and Geelong and Ballarat are intercity sparked.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
bevans, what makes you think the public are unhappy with the V'lo ?

I'd say the public would not give a Rats, what type of train it is. The best train for the public is one that is reliable, reasonably comfortable to sit or stand in / on and goes from A to B without any drama.

The V'lo is certainly reliable and being in operation for as many years as it has, you'd say very durable as well.

That is a low bar to measure the success of a service don;t you think?  We have an opportunity in Victoria to solicit public input into a new series of services being planned.  This is the perfect opportunity to share the vision with the public and from feedback change/alter "re-imagine" what a better and more publically acceptable service looks like and should be delivered.
bevans

Do we really need a hotch-potch of differing regional trains Question

It's a already messy with the METRO services operating trains that cannot operate on different lines. Once the loco-hauled services are retired, imagine losing that flexibility in V/Line and having differing rolling stock on specific lines...what a shambles Question

Best to stick with one tried and true product that doesn't require different companies requiring their own servicing space and drivers needing to train in operating different kinds of rolling stock.

Mike.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Bombardier have been give 12 months to design a 2 body E-class, as opposed to a 3 body E-class. I suspect they are ready for a "tender" process as they are ready to unveil.
Traditional E-Class cannot negotiate the curves of the eastern and western suburbs network. There will be no surprises which I think is a good thing. just roll out 20 E class a year for the next 20 years!!!!
traintram
You'd actually be surprised where they send the E's to test them...
  712M Chief Commissioner

I’m not sure I can see the point of designing a smaller E class where most routes are at or over capacity at most times of the day. Continuing to roll out the 3-module E2 onto busy routes such as the 1, 6, 19, 48, 58, 59, 75 and 109 would allow the B/C/D class to cascaded onto the quieter Z/A routes (e.g. 16, 57, 78) enabling retirement of the smallest high-floor trams. The B’s still have plenty of life in them and would be ideal for additional peak hour services. As it stands Melbourne still suffers from a huge capacity shortage even with 75 E’s on the network.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Bombardier have been give 12 months to design a 2 body E-class, as opposed to a 3 body E-class. I suspect they are ready for a "tender" process as they are ready to unveil.
Traditional E-Class cannot negotiate the curves of the eastern and western suburbs network. There will be no surprises which I think is a good thing. just roll out 20 E class a year for the next 20 years!!!!
traintram
The E class can't negotiate sharp curves? They have no trouble negotiating the back streets of St Kilda (aka route 12) when the 96 light rail is out of action, and those curves are enough to cause a tiny A class to make a horrible skidding noise even at low speed (either that or the tracks are that stuffed that the tram's driving on its flanges, wouldn't surprise me given the appalling condition of other parts of the network e.g. Camberwell Rd, Cotham/Whitehorse Rd (Kew-Balwyn), Glenferrie Rd). Z1s used to hate sharp curves but they were used on Glenhuntly and Malvern routes since forever (and in the Met era, Camberwell routes as well, back when the B2 light rail vehicles (as they were then called) only ran on the 96 and other "premium" routes).
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

From VicSig's site:
https://vicsig.net/photo/18979
Photo: Ian Green
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

bevans, what makes you think the public are unhappy with the V'lo ?

I'd say the public would not give a Rats, what type of train it is. The best train for the public is one that is reliable, reasonably comfortable to sit or stand in / on and goes from A to B without any drama.

The V'lo is certainly reliable and being in operation for as many years as it has, you'd say very durable as well.

That is a low bar to measure the success of a service don;t you think?  We have an opportunity in Victoria to solicit public input into a new series of services being planned.  This is the perfect opportunity to share the vision with the public and from feedback change/alter "re-imagine" what a better and more publically acceptable service looks like and should be delivered.

Do we really need a hotch-potch of differing regional trains Question

It's a already messy with the METRO services operating trains that cannot operate on different lines. Once the loco-hauled services are retired, imagine losing that flexibility in V/Line and having differing rolling stock on specific lines...what a shambles Question

Best to stick with one tried and true product that doesn't require different companies requiring their own servicing space and drivers needing to train in operating different kinds of rolling stock.

Mike.
The Vinelander

I agree stick with your vlocities but maybe make them a little more modern and get rid of the hopeless transmission and replace it with electric traction.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
The VLocity is literally one of the most reliable and fastest-accelerating DMUs in the world, there’s no legitimate reason to accuse its transmission of being ‘hopeless’.

Sometimes you can actually design and build a good train in Australia instead of getting the Spaniards to cook one up for you.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

While we’re at it sims, have would you have us make them “a little more modern”? Gut the interior and put some 90s CountryLink carpet in?

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