Future of Sydney’s Electric Rolling Stock (K/C/V Sets)

 
  C3765 Train Controller

Many of Sydney’s former electric rolling stock (the standard red sets, the Bradfield cars, Tulloch double deck cars, Comeng “Sputnik” cars and single deck interurban cars) have been preserved or retained by various organisations/individuals over the years. The newest addition being the recently decommissioned Series 1-4 Double Deck Suburbans (L/R/S Sets) of which several sets have been preserved. Unfortunately, according to THNSW’s most recent board meeting, the same will not be done for the Series 5-6 Double Deck Suburbans (K/C Sets) and as for the Double Deck Interurbans (V Sets), only 5 cars (2 motors and 3 trailers) are planned to be preserved. I just wanted to bring this to your attention before it’s too late.

Future electric rolling stock acquisitions Transport for NSW (TfNSW) are currently planning the future retirement of C, K and V sets. As subject matter experts, THNSW was asked to make its recommendations to TfNSW on what should be retained for the NSW State-owned Collection. Our THNSW Collections & Curatorial Committee has recommended no C or K sets be retained, however that a four-car interurban V set be set aside for future heritage operations and one trailer car for static display. The recommendations were endorsed by the Board and will be submitted to TfNSW who will make a final decision on the future of these sets in the near future.
Transport Heritage NSW



I think C3501 and D4096 should be retained and used on tours attached to a 4-Car S Set as an Esky Set to provide air conditioned cars on hot days. I know a lot of people would want a C Set preserved as well because it is pretty unique compared to the S and K Sets. Also I don’t think 5 V Set cars would be enough to showcase the many types of V Set cars that exist. Hopefully awareness of this situation will prevent a couple more cars from becoming scrap metal. These cars will be retired eventually, however they should remain in service for another 4-5 years.

Sponsored advertisement

  viaprojects Train Controller

. I just wanted to bring this to your attention before it’s too late.




C3765


we have the history and don't have space for the updated clones ...

the real problem with the newer stock is the same problem with the V sets .. easy to have all the parts just a problem if the frame is not up to standards .... mostly why the limited number of V sets being saved...  

also the metal work is a b___ to fix ..
  C3765 Train Controller

don't have space for the updated clones
viaprojects
Space isn’t a real problem since the new Chullora Heritage Hub will be opening in the next few years and Flemington Maintenance Centre will be empty once all the K Sets, C Sets and V Sets are withdrawn.

the frame is not up to standards
viaprojects

The carriages currently in service have frames which are up to standards which is why they are still in service unlike the early V Sets which were withdrawn.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

. I just wanted to bring this to your attention before it’s too late.





we have the history and don't have space for the updated clones ...

the real problem with the newer stock is the same problem with the V sets .. easy to have all the parts just a problem if the frame is not up to standards .... mostly why the limited number of V sets being saved...  

also the metal work is a b___ to fix ..
viaprojects
Complete BS. Only the early V sets had mild steel frames and they are all gone.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Many of Sydney’s former electric rolling stock (the standard red sets, the Bradfield cars, Tulloch double deck cars, Comeng “Sputnik” cars and single deck interurban cars) have been preserved or retained by various organisations/individuals over the years. The newest addition being the recently decommissioned Series 1-4 Double Deck Suburbans (L/R/S Sets) of which several sets have been preserved. Unfortunately, according to THNSW’s most recent board meeting, the same will not be done for the Series 5-6 Double Deck Suburbans (K/C Sets) and as for the Double Deck Interurbans (V Sets), only 5 cars (2 motors and 3 trailers) are planned to be preserved. I just wanted to bring this to your attention before it’s too late.

Future electric rolling stock acquisitions Transport for NSW (TfNSW) are currently planning the future retirement of C, K and V sets. As subject matter experts, THNSW was asked to make its recommendations to TfNSW on what should be retained for the NSW State-owned Collection. Our THNSW Collections & Curatorial Committee has recommended no C or K sets be retained, however that a four-car interurban V set be set aside for future heritage operations and one trailer car for static display. The recommendations were endorsed by the Board and will be submitted to TfNSW who will make a final decision on the future of these sets in the near future.



I think C3501 and D4096 should be retained and used on tours attached to a 4-Car S Set as an Esky Set to provide air conditioned cars on hot days. I know a lot of people would want a C Set preserved as well because it is pretty unique compared to the S and K Sets. Also I don’t think 5 V Set cars would be enough to showcase the many types of V Set cars that exist. Hopefully awareness of this situation will prevent a couple more cars from becoming scrap metal. These cars will be retired eventually, however they should remain in service for another 4-5 years.
C3765
If a V set is required for tours then V40 should be kept as it's all DK series cars and fairly new.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

We'll see how out it all plays out.

Some possible set formations of significant cars

Camshaft Possibilities

First official electric train to Newcastle 03 June 1984 was (U35)DIM8070-DIT9115-DIT9116-DIM8069 + (U22)DIM8055-DIT9108-DIT9105-DIM8046

The "Ultimate" northern line/newcastle electrification heritage set

From the above consist could form: DIM8070-DIT9115-DIT9108-DIM8046

- Worth noting U35 was a brand new in service set to show off the new candy car contract
- DIT9108 was also part of the 8 car consist for the last passenger carrying revenue service out of Newcastle in December 2014 then the line was cut back to Hamilton
- DIM8046 was also the rear power car of the first official electric train to Wyong in April 1982, hence carried 2 "official first" headboards.
- This would give a perfect "half half" Candy and Blue Goose camshaft set made up of significant cars

Other significant camshaft power cars:
- DIM8069 was the first Candy car camshaft and part of the official train above.
- DIM8089 is highly significant as having lead the first official electric train Sydney to Wollongong on February 4, 1986 after the Stanwell park viaduct issues were sorted out. This was an official train as with the above one with Premier and/or Transport Minister on board.

- DCM8032 was one of few of the 1977/78 batch DCM's that didn't have it's canopy compromised by the additional (and later removal) of the desto board.
- DIM8038 might be considered as the oldest DIM power car which formed the first 4 car (and later first revenue service to use DIM power cars, a 6 car set with 8037, 8038 and 8039) in June 1981. Problem with DIM8038 I think it's vestibule, when they refurbished it, doesn't have a door into the passenger cabin section so in that sense not quite as "original".

Otherwise you could form an "oldest remaining V set" all blue goose 4 car set

DCM8032-DCT90??-DIT9101-DIM8038


Possible Chopper Set

DJM8093(or DJM8101)-DIT???-DKT9191-DKM8145

This would give the oldest and newest Chopper cars. DJM8101 had the special 20th anniversary of double deck trains to the Central coast livery painted on it in 1990 (blue and yellow stripes). It was also part of the last revenue passenger carrying service out of Newcastle before the line was cut back in December 2014.


More info about V sets:- https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11397433.htm
  sthyer Deputy Commissioner

The four best condition carriages, either a full cam or chopper set, whichever is easiest to maintain into the future. Carriage numbers with historic significance are nice, but if that carriage is in poor condition compared to an identical stablemate, condition needs to be given strong consideration. It might sound a boring approach, but the difference between a set with ongoing problems and a set capable of reliable operation is priceless when there are limited people on the tools.

If more than 4 can be retained, then you can afford to preserve for significance.
  C3765 Train Controller

Good News for any K Set or C Set fans out there.

As regards plannned preservation of other 1980s electric stock, the current draft policy for the NSW State-owned collection is:- "Our Transport Heritage NSW Collections & Curatorial Committee has recommended no C or K sets be retained, however that a four-car interurban V set be set aside for future heritage operations and one trailer car for static display." So like retention of a complete Monorail set, it appears that preservation of examples of K-set and C-set 1980s electric trains will be left entirely to SETS.
Sydney Electric Train Society
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

The four best condition carriages, either a full cam or chopper set, whichever is easiest to maintain into the future. Carriage numbers with historic significance are nice, but if that carriage is in poor condition compared to an identical stablemate, condition needs to be given strong consideration. It might sound a boring approach, but the difference between a set with ongoing problems and a set capable of reliable operation is priceless when there are limited people on the tools.

If more than 4 can be retained, then you can afford to preserve for significance.
sthyer

I agree that condition should be put first as well as with that, how close to original the car is and outward appearance - is it somewhat banged up a bit, or modified due to collision damage in the past, electrical and mechanical condition, body condition, etc, all of that. However, if any of those significant cars are pretty much equal to the best cars in the fleet, then they can get preference.
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
It would be great if it was a chopper set. Of course, people like all the distinctive features that are found across all v sets, however the chopper sets have some more distinctive features that the camshaft sets don't have. also, the chopper sets are newer and make up the majority of the fleet (V18 - V51 I think).
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
It would be great if it was a chopper set. Of course, people like all the distinctive features that are found across all v sets, however the chopper sets have some more distinctive features that the camshaft sets don't have. also, the chopper sets are newer and make up the majority of the fleet (V18 - V51 I think).
Colonel Leon
There should be a Cam car and a Chopper car preserved As well as a DCT and DIM car. Possibly also a DKM. 6 car V Set?
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

Based on the statement put out by THNSW even to get a 6 car set might be too hopeful....

If they even keep the same amount of V set cars as they have S set cars (14). That could allow them to, on the whole, represent the various contracts/sub-contracts well.

6 Car Camshaft:    DCM8032-DCT-DIM[8038-8068]-DIT[9101-9114]-DIT[9115-9138]-DIM[8069-8092]
6 Car Chopper:     DJM[8093-8108]-DIT-DIT-DJM[8109-8138]-DKT-DKM

This would give them 12 cars (2 6 car sets), or 2 4 car sets with spare trailer and power car for each. They then could pick another power car + trailer for display purposes if they want.

But if all they keep is just a 4 car set and a trailer for display as they suggest as well as no K or C sets, I think this shows that within the THNSW collective (or those that are in charge of collections) don't care too much about electrics. I think the big focus for them is steam (and diesel) as they probably see this as attracting much more people/attention/ticket sales. It's probably incredibly fortunate that you have someone like Howard Collins who is at the top of Sydney Trains and sits on the board of THNSW otherwise Red Set F1 would perhaps still be sitting in the sheds collecting dust.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
The issue isn’t that they don’t care about the electrics it’s that, even at Chullora, there’s only limited room.
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
it doesn't make sence to preserve all these s sets and no k or c sets. s sets may have more history, but particulary c sets are important as well for being the prototype Tangaras and the first trains to use chopper control
when v sets are even older, they would possibably make a popular tour, especially on the blue mountains or something
  Floreat2020 Beginner

This may be a silly question to some but can someone tell me the difference between the S and K sets please?
  Gaz170 Junior Train Controller

Location: Gold Coast
This may be a silly question to some but can someone tell me the difference between the S and K sets please?
Floreat2020
Essentially a K set is a newer, air conditioned version of an S set.  There were other differences as well, but in essence they were the successor to the S sets.    The most fundamental change was whereas on the S Sets the motor cars held all the equipment, and the trailer cars had none of the electrical equipment, on the K Sets this was split between the trailer and motor cars due to the additional air conditioning equipment, so a motor and it's trailer were semi permanently coupled togeather.

Also, a major change was that the trailer cars had the driving cabs, not the motor cars.
  Floreat2020 Beginner

This may be a silly question to some but can someone tell me the difference between the S and K sets please?
Essentially a K set is a newer, air conditioned version of an S set.  There were other differences as well, but in essence they were the successor to the S sets.    The most fundamental change was whereas on the S Sets the motor cars held all the equipment, and the trailer cars had none of the electrical equipment, on the K Sets this was split between the trailer and motor cars due to the additional air conditioning equipment, so a motor and it's trailer were semi permanently coupled togeather.

Also, a major change was that the trailer cars had the driving cabs, not the motor cars.
Gaz170
Thanks Gaz that's very helpful
  Sydney Metro Vlogs Locomotive Fireman

Location: On H1 in car OD6901
What will be happening with the ATP Test Trains (Y Sets)?
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Also, a major change was that the trailer cars had the driving cabs, not the motor cars.
Gaz170


Only 4 trailers had cabs on the K Sets; the rest were on the motor control (C) cars.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

What will be happening with the ATP Test Trains (Y Sets)?
Sydney Metro Vlogs

From what I've read, Y2 has been stripped for spares and will never run again, apparently they badly needed the spare parts (traction motors). Y1 it seems might re-enter service for further ATP Test work. Even after the V sets are retired, they may decide to keep Y1 running for testing purposes if it serves it's purpose. I mean...you've got an electric train, air-con, lots of room, comfort, if it's doing it's job I suppose keep it running.

On further potential candidates for preserving V set cars. Yes, mechanical/electrical/body condition is incredibly important, as is appearance and this in part ties in with "body condition". So, cars that have had evidence of repairs of collision damage, or various dings and dents/damage to their distinctive fluting, etc would not make for great candidates. Also of importance is how close to "original" condition the cars are. From there, if any of the more historically significant cars satisfy the above or are of equal or better quality than most, they can become candidates. Of those:-

The DC series only has 2 motor cars left (8032 and 8036). Out of these you'd pick DCM8032 as it hasn't had it's canopy compromised by the addition and later removal of the desto board (unlike 8036). In terms of DCT trailers, no idea, if I'm not mistaken, I think i've seen mentioned that the cars coded "DTD" still retain their cabs, in that case, I suppose DTD9032 which is paired with DCM8032 on V21 could be the candidate, so you could keep both those cars.

In terms of DIM camshaft, you have the Blue Goose and Candy cars. In terms of Blue Goose Trailers (9101 - 9114) you'd favour DIT9101 or DIT9108. DIT9101 would probably be the natural pick being the first, 9108 was part of the first official electric train to Newcastle 1984 and last passenger carrying train out of Newcastle in December 2014 so could be considered an alternate.

In terms of power cars (8037 - 8068), with DIM8037 scrapped a long time ago, historical stand outs would be DIM8038, DIM8039 (these 2 part of first revenue set, 6 cars, to use the DIM power cars in June 1981), DIM8046 which was rear power car of 2 first official electric trains (Wyong and Newcastle), DIM8055 (part first electric train to Newcastle) and maybe DIM8068 (last blue goose car). Having had to travel to Blue Mountains from time to time over the past few months and being in some of these cars, I can say that DIM8038 after it was put back into service in 2015 on V27 after being withdrawn for a time in 2012 has a vestibule at one end that doesn't have a door between the vestibule and passenger cabin. DIM8046 i've read somewhere has had it's cab upgraded (apparently only car to have it done). So those 2 changes could work against those 2.

In terms of Candy Power cars (DIM8069 - 8092). DIM8069, DIM8070 and DIM8089 are most significant. 8070 and 8089 lead the first official electric trains, respectively, to Newcastle (June 1984) and Wollongong (February 1986). 8069 was the first car of that contract officially handed over in April 1984 and was part of the first electric train to Newcastle. Hopefully, if they were to keep a second power car from this candy cars such as one for a museum display even, it could for instance allow both 8070 and 8089 to survive.

In terms of Trailers (9115 - 9138). DIT9115 most significant as being the car behind 8070 for first electric to Newcastle. DIT9116 was also part of that set so could be an alternate pick if in better condition.


In terms of chopper, you could do something like DJM8093/DJM8101, DIT9139, DIT9184, DJM8138, DKT9191, DKM8145 which would cover those numerous contracts well. DJM8101 had the unique 20th anniversary of double deck trains to Central Coast livery (blue and yellow stripes).

In terms of camshaft maybe DCM8032, DTD9032, DIM8038/8039/8046/8055/8068, DIT9101/9108, DIT9115, DIM8070 and keep DIM8089 as extra car so you save the 2 cars that lead official electric trains. If 8069 were to be in better condition than 8070 then could sub that one in instead.

For the above / is "or"

If they were to ultimately decide to keep about the same amount of cars as S set cars (12 - 14 range), then the above would be 7 for camshaft variant, 6 for chopper, which would fall in the same range.
  marvin Assistant Commissioner

Location: Mars... "The Earth? Oh, the Earth will be gone in just a few seconds!"
Are any V-sets undergoing refurbishment or testing?

Spotted a Down 4 car V-set snaking its way into the back platform (platform 1) at Campbelltown just over an hour ago. Looked nice and shiny. I was in the bus at the terminus, so I could not see the target plate. I could not see if there were any 'Test Train" signs.

I had a look on AnyTrip and it was T8 Run H131 Central Terminal (platform 2) to Campbelltown via Sydenham departure time not given, but left 9 minutes early. No details for the trip in to Central was given apart from arrival at 8:26am and dwell of 101 minutes.

Run H131 arrived at Campbelltown 9 minutes early. Teminates.

A return trip (Run H132) was scheduled to depart at 11:14am

There was another trip return trip scheduled as Runs H133 and H134. Then a dwell for 77 minutes and a departure at 4:35pm, with no further details given.

Any ideas as to why a V-set would be lurking out in the south-west?

Automatic Train Protection testing? Driver training perhaps?

But why Campbelltown for a V-set?

marvin
------
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Locomotive Driver

Are any V-sets undergoing refurbishment or testing?

Spotted a Down 4 car V-set snaking its way into the back platform (platform 1) at Campbelltown just over an hour ago. Looked nice and shiny. I was in the bus at the terminus, so I could not see the target plate. I could not see if there were any 'Test Train" signs.

I had a look on AnyTrip and it was T8 Run H131 Central Terminal (platform 2) to Campbelltown via Sydenham departure time not given, but left 9 minutes early. No details for the trip in to Central was given apart from arrival at 8:26am and dwell of 101 minutes.

Run H131 arrived at Campbelltown 9 minutes early. Teminates.

A return trip (Run H132) was scheduled to depart at 11:14am

There was another trip return trip scheduled as Runs H133 and H134. Then a dwell for 77 minutes and a departure at 4:35pm, with no further details given.

Any ideas as to why a V-set would be lurking out in the south-west?

Automatic Train Protection testing? Driver training perhaps?

But why Campbelltown for a V-set?

marvin
------
marvin
The V sets are getting replaced by the D sets. So it doesn't make sense why it would be getting refurbished. And the ATP Y-sets are 3 carriages (i think Y2 has been disbanded though - not sure about Y1)
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

Maybe the V sets will be refurbished and continue on intercity, runs and the D sets will be repurposed to replace C and K sets.

Mistakes should be acknowledged, but if this helps the pollies quietly right wrongs, then it's the same thing.
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Locomotive Driver

Maybe the V sets will be refurbished and continue on intercity, runs and the D sets will be repurposed to replace C and K sets.

Mistakes should be acknowledged, but if this helps the pollies quietly right wrongs, then it's the same thing.
ANR
It won't be that way. The D sets are going to replace the V and H sets on InterCity runs. The V sets are being scrapped, and the H sets are being repurposed to replace the K and C sets
  C3765 Train Controller

Spotted a Down 4 car V-set snaking its way into the back platform (platform 1) at Campbelltown just over an hour ago. Looked nice and shiny. I was in the bus at the terminus, so I could not see the target plate
marvin
I know it was V5 but I don’t know why it went down there. Maybe an expansion of the electrified network?  Could be possible since extra D Sets were supposedly ordered bringing the numbers up to 72x four Car and 67x six Car sets.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: