T3 Bankstown Line - West of Bankstown

 
  C3765 Train Controller

The T3 Bankstown Line which is currently operated by Sydney Trains heavy rail services will soon be converted to metro standards and there is no stopping that now. The only thing we CAN do is decide on the future of rail services west of Bankstown.

The following document outlines 3 options:

Option 1:
Lidcombe to Bankstown Via Regents Park
& Bankstown to Liverpool Via Sefton

Option 2:
City Circle to Liverpool Via Strathfield and Regents Park
& Lidcombe to Bankstown Via Regents Park Shuttle

Option 3:
City Circle to Bankstown Via Strathfield and Regents Park
& Bankstown to Liverpool Via Sefton Shuttle

More Information: https://yoursay.transport.nsw.gov.au/52978/documents/128585/download

Have your say here: https://yoursay.transport.nsw.gov.au/west-of-Bankstown

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  RIWLtrains Beginner

Long overdue but reassuring for commuters west of Bankstown to have confirmation that stations won't close anymore

Option 2 (preferred):

City to Liverpool via Regents Park (former Inner West Line) is great

Birrong and Yagoona without trains to City isn't ideal but hopefully Lidcombe to Bankstown shuttle can be similar frequency to Metro

Removal of Liverpool to Bankstown direct is disappointing

And renaming Liverpool via Regents Park as T3 Bankstown Line despite route not going to Bankstown would confuse passengers...

Maybe it should be called T6 Liverpool Line (via Regents Park)
  Totoro Station Master

This is indeed really good news, I agree Option 2 will probably look the most palatable for most customers west of Bankstown and actually seems preferable to the current setup.

Will be interesting to see the effect this has on the “Save T3” group, seeing as some stations will be pit against each other in terms of which retains the direct city connections. Will we see a splintering in terms of which option is preferred? Hopefully they can cut back on the anti-Metro rhetoric at any rate.
  mike49 Locomotive Fireman

Of the 3 options provided option 2 seems to be a no brainer. At least there are more winners than losers under it. Timetabling of good connections between the Bankstown shuttle & the Liverpool trains at Regents Park will be essential.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Option one is really the only viable option unless a third track pair is built between strathfield and lidcombe.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Long overdue but reassuring for commuters west of Bankstown to have confirmation that stations won't close anymore

Option 2 (preferred):

City to Liverpool via Regents Park (former Inner West Line) is great

Birrong and Yagoona without trains to City isn't ideal but hopefully Lidcombe to Bankstown shuttle can be similar frequency to Metro

Removal of Liverpool to Bankstown direct is disappointing

And renaming Liverpool via Regents Park as T3 Bankstown Line despite route not going to Bankstown would confuse passengers...

Maybe it should be called T6 Liverpool Line (via Regents Park)
RIWLtrains
I agree that Option 2 is probably the best outcome for the majority, notwithstanding the fact that Birrong and Yagoona miss out on a direct rail service to the CBD.  The metro conversion of the Bankstown Line, truncated at Bankstown, has brought this on, when there were other alternatives which could have avoided this mess.

Including Liverpool to Bankstown direct under that scenario probably wouldn't be feasible as it would create significant congestion at the triangle, although it's surprising that has been omitted, as you would think the government would be anxious to boost the patronage on the metro.  I doubt if many would bother interchanging at Regents Park to reach Bankstown, unless that is their destination, and changing again to the metro to reach the CBD, where most would probably be going.

It's telling that TfNSW has recommended its preferred Option 2 for a direct journey to the CBD from Liverpool via Regents Park rather than all previous suggestions that the Liverpool services would feed into the metro at Bankstown.  Perhaps they underestimated the level of antipathy towards being forced to interchange to reach the CBD, when most currently have a direct uninterrupted journey.  That also brings into question the whole viability of this misguided project when anticipated patronage levels and alleged broader benefits are unlikely to be realised.  It's also a lesson to be considered in the planning for Metro West, which will be heavily reliant upon interchange from other existing Sydney Trains services.  The fact that they have acknowledged under Option 1 that there would be an increase of Liverpool-Cabramatta customers using T2 services via Granville to travel direct to the city resulting in more crowding on that line, even though it's slower, only reinforces that perspective.

It's worth noting the comment under Options 2 and 3 that - "stations served by the new services between Lidcombe and the city are indicative only.  Stopping patterns are still to be developed and will be communicated at a later stage".  

How can anyone make an informed decision on these proposals without being aware of all the facts, which includes the journey times, dependent on whether there's an all stations or semi-express operating pattern?  Integrating both the via Granville and Regents Park services on the Inner West Locals, including T2 Parramatta, will be a challenge without broader revision of T1 services, which I have alluded to on another thread.  It's again, just planning on the run.  Would I be too cynical in suggesting that it's been rushed out on the same day to counter the revelation that the City and South West Metro project budget has blown out by almost $5 billion and that it was known before the last State election?

As a further refinement to Option 2, I suggest that the Leppington services should travel via Regents Park for a faster journey and the via Granville services start/terminate at Liverpool.

I agree that the renaming of the Liverpool via Regents Park services as T3 Bankstown Line is a misnomer, when the main direct route to Liverpool doesn't even go to Bankstown.  Perhaps the route from Leppington to the City Circle via Liverpool and Regents Park could be redesignated as T6 and from Liverpool to Lidcombe via Granville as T2.  T3 Lidcombe to Bankstown?

Personally, I'd prefer all of the main trunk routes to be designated alphabetically like the Paris RER, with branches designated numerically.  For example, the Main Western Line corridor from Central to Penrith as Line A1 and branches to the Northern Line from Strathfield as A2, the South Line from Granville to Liverpool as A3 and the Richmond Line from Blacktown as A4.  The North Shore Line could be an extension from Central as A1.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Here are you T3 number for 2018 entries and exits. Please note how low the numbers for station further west of Birrong are. By west I do not mean regents park and Berala which I consider to be north.



Stations 2018 Entries 24 hours 2018 Exits 24 hours
Bankstown 9830 10240
Campsie 9170 9080
Marrickville 4610 4390
Lakemba 4360 4320
St Peters 4080 3600
Punchbowl 3020 2810
Belmore 3040 2790
Canterbury 3220 2930
Berala 2240 2180
Regents Park 1430 1370
Dulwich Hill 2980 2660
Erskineville 2890 2430
Wiley Park 1980 1720
Yagoona 1800 1620
Chester Hill 1300 1220
Hurlstone Park 1640 1450
Sefton 820 680
Birrong 1270 1150
Villawood 550 490
Carramar 630 540
Leightonfield 270 300
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

OK I deleted the old post because I wanted to format the sheet correctly. Here are the T2 via granville station numbers


Station 2018 Entries 24 hours 2018 Exits 24 hours
Auburn 14320 14030
Cabramatta 9200 8870
Liverpool 9890 9930
Fairfield 7880 7750
Merrylands 6160 5940
Granville 6790 6260
Flemington 4870 4600
Guildford 3380 3080
Canley Vale 2970 2760
Homebush 3560 3250
Warwick Farm 2810 2670
Yennora 1190 1240
Casula 420 350
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

One thing I noticed on the new proposed maps is that not only is the orange T3 all stops but so is the via granville services. Unless that is a misprint.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
OK I deleted the old post because I wanted to format the sheet correctly. Here are the T2 via granville station numbers


 
Station 2018 Entries 24 hours 2018 Exits 24 hours
Auburn 14320 14030
Cabramatta 9200 8870
Liverpool 9890 9930
Fairfield 7880 7750
Merrylands 6160 5940
Granville 6790 6260
Flemington 4870 4600
Guildford 3380 3080
Canley Vale 2970 2760
Homebush 3560 3250
Warwick Farm 2810 2670
Yennora 1190 1240
Casula 420 350
simstrain
Putting the metro aside, what matters sims, is having the most direct and fastest route from the outer suburbs to the CBD.  The fact that stations from Liverpool via Regents Park have lower patronage than the route via Granville, which has much higher patronage, is irrelevant.  I'm sure you will agree that commuters from Leppington to Cabramatta would prefer to have a faster journey via Regents Park than the longer and slower route via Granville.

With Leppington to Cabramatta commuters taking the faster Regents Park route to the CBD, it would free up capacity on the Liverpool via Granville route, complemented by additional Cumberland Line service.  You can quibble about the relative frequencies on each route because of the demand, but that's subserviant to the principle of providing the most direct and fastest route to the CBD from the outer suburbs.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
One thing I noticed on the new proposed maps is that not only is the orange T3 all stops but so is the via granville services. Unless that is a misprint.
simstrain
I've added further comments to my earlier post which may elaborate on this matter.  It's not a misprint, they just haven't worked it out yet, which is concerning.  It reinforces my contention that they still haven't thought it through after all this time since the Bankstown Line conversion to metro was initiated.

As it appears, because of the line frequency restraints with mixed stopping patterns, both the via Granville and Regents Park services via the Inner West Locals would have to be slower all-stations services, which is hardly an improvement on the current semi-express services.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

@Transtopic, u will find via Granville and Via Regents park will need to have the same transit times to avoid timetable collissions.

Equally there arn't enough paths to have traffic class segregation on the three T-blue (I can't understand their numbering system) routes west of Homebush.

TfNSW clearly prioritise lowly passenger amenity and especially transit times.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

As much as I would love a faster service in to the CBD from Liverpool or Warwick farm it can not come at the expense of fewer services to the stations between Granville and Cabramatta. Passengers at Leppington and Edmondson park change at Glenfield so they already get access to a faster service. The via granville service used to be a much faster service when it didn't have to stop at Clyde, Flemington and Newtown and run behind the all stops services on the locals. Maybe someone has a link to the old city rail timetables.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Actually i just found it courtesy of another Railpage thread. Left liverpool at 7.04am and arrived at central at 7:53am. A journey time of 49 minutes.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001017120403/http://www.cityrail.nsw.gov.au/timetables/south/up_m-f/lframe.htm
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
@Transtopic, u will find via Granville and Via Regents park will need to have the same transit times to avoid timetable collissions.

Equally there arn't enough paths to have traffic class segregation on the three T-blue (I can't understand their numbering system) routes west of Homebush.

TfNSW clearly prioritise lowly passenger amenity and especially transit times.
djf01
I can't see why the Granville and Regents Park routes would need to have the same transit times.  Regardless of where either service originates from, one would be from Leppington and the other from Liverpool.  Surely the timetable could be constructed to allow a smooth merge at Lidcombe.

I'm not sure what you mean by the three T-blue routes west of Homebush.  Are you referring to the existing T2 route via Granville, which includes the Parramatta starters/terminators, the proposed new route via Regents Park and the shuttle service from Lidcombe to Bankstown?  Only the Granville and Regents Park services would use the Suburban tracks from Lidcombe to Homebush and the shuttle to Bankstown would use the terminating road at Lidcombe.  Depending upon the proposed frequencies for the respective services, this section of track should be able to be upgraded to handle 20tph.

However, it doesn't leave much room for running a mixed stopping pattern on the Locals, let alone an increase in services, which highlights the need for more track amplifications which I have alluded to earlier.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

@Transtopic, u will find via Granville and Via Regents park will need to have the same transit times to avoid timetable collissions.

Equally there arn't enough paths to have traffic class segregation on the three T-blue (I can't understand their numbering system) routes west of Homebush.

TfNSW clearly prioritise lowly passenger amenity and especially transit times.
I can't see why the Granville and Regents Park routes would need to have the same transit times.  Regardless of where either service originates from, one would be from Leppington and the other from Liverpool.  Surely the timetable could be constructed to allow a smooth merge at Lidcombe.
Transtopic

It's not the merge at Lidcombe that is the issue.  It's the separation at Cabramatta *and* the re-integration at Lidcombe.

I envisage the stopping patterns - in 15 minute intervals - be:
Via Regents Park (RP)
Via Granville  (GV)
Via Parramatta. (Prr)

A viable sequence at Warrick Farm (in Up direction) might be:

0:00 GV
0:03 RP
0:06 Prr
0:09 GV
0:12 RP

If the transit times are the same, the sequence at Lidcombe is the same.

It is sort of possible to have a 6 minute discrepancy, and the sequence at Lidcombe becomes:

0:00 RP
0:03 GV
0:06 Prr
0:09 RP
0:12 GV

This patterns has the problem that trains via Regents Park overtake those via Granville, meaning users won't board Granville trains at Liverpool.  If they all have the same pattern, turn up and go frequency at Liverpool.

It should also be noted there is only little prospect of variations in stopping patterns on the two routes.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There are still a couple of via regents park services that run. In the afternoon there are 2 services that leave Cabramatta at 3:22pm and 3:52pm. Those trips take 23 minutes. The via granville route also takes 23 minutes if it skips clyde. So RP services would have to be synced with via granville non clyde stop services.

In the morning there is a RP service from lidcombe to cabramatta that skips, leightonfield, villawood and carramar that takes 17 minutes.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney

This patterns has the problem that trains via Regents Park overtake those via Granville, meaning users won't board Granville trains at Liverpool.  If they all have the same pattern, turn up and go frequency at Liverpool.

It should also be noted there is only little prospect of variations in stopping patterns on the two routes.
djf01
I can't see the problem.  The whole point of redirecting some Liverpool via Regents Park services from via Granville is to provide a faster journey to the CBD for those between Liverpool and Cabramatta and at the same time freeing up capacity on the Granville route north of Cabramatta, complemented by increased Cumberland Line services.  The merging at Lidcombe shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of modern computerised signalling.  I agree that there should be a consistent all-stations stopping pattern for the two routes between Lidcombe and Burwood.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


This patterns has the problem that trains via Regents Park overtake those via Granville, meaning users won't board Granville trains at Liverpool.  If they all have the same pattern, turn up and go frequency at Liverpool.

It should also be noted there is only little prospect of variations in stopping patterns on the two routes.I can't see the problem.  The whole point of redirecting some Liverpool via Regents Park services from via Granville is to provide a faster journey to the CBD for those between Liverpool and Cabramatta and at the same time freeing up capacity on the Granville route north of Cabramatta, complemented by increased Cumberland Line services.  The merging at Lidcombe shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of modern computerised signalling.  I agree that there should be a consistent all-stations stopping pattern for the two routes between Lidcombe and Burwood.
Transtopic

I understand your objectives.  I should point out that *no-one* (you or I aside perhaps) is interested in improving travel times and passenger amenity.  SSELR should be proof enough of that.  It seems to me TSfNSW are quite happy to slow down HR more, to reduce congestion on the city platforms and ensure Metro looks more cost effective.

Reform/simplification of stopping patterns is about reducing congestion on City platforms in the PM peak by ensuring people can catch any train, or at least any second train, and arn't waiting around as only 1 in 5 trains stops at their station.

I would appreciate if you (@transtopic) might outline how you see a timetable operating between Liverpool and Lidcombe.  As I see it, there are too many intermediate stations that need to be serviced.

The via regents Park is 3500m shorter than via Granville, which is ~2min transit time, all else equal - or one extra stop.  It's the stopping patterns which determine the transit time.

I should also point out that the junction at Cabramatta is under no less stress than the one at Lidcombe.  All T2(T-Blue) trains travel between Cabramatta and Liverpool.  Extra capacity for the Cumberland line is not freed up by transferring via Granville to via Regents Park, only transferring via Granville to Parramatta Stoppers.

There is also the complication of a "need" for Liverpool-Bankstown shuttles, something "Option 2" dispensed with.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The only way that this can truly be solved is the sextuplification of the line between strathfield and lidcombe. Then you can put your via regents park services in all you want.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The only way that this can truly be solved is the sextuplification of the line between strathfield and lidcombe. Then you can put your via regents park services in all you want.
simstrain

No, because that doesn't address the issue between Cabramatta and Liverpool
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The only way that this can truly be solved is the sextuplification of the line between strathfield and lidcombe. Then you can put your via regents park services in all you want.

No, because that doesn't address the issue between Cabramatta and Liverpool
djf01

There is no issue between Liverpool and Cabramatta especially with 4 platforms at Liverpool. Adding the third track pair allows Bankstown via Lidcombe services to operate without affecting the points at Cabramatta which are high speed and can handle the amount of trains we are talking about in any case. via regents park doesn't need to have 8 trains an hour as Transtopic suggests either and really only needs 2-4 which is easily within the bounds of any capacity issues at the Cabramatta points.

8 Granville, 2 Cumberland and 2-4 via regents park. sefton to carramar does 3570 in 24 hours. Fairfield by itself does 7880 in that same 24 hours. There is no reason whatsoever to reduce via granville services to below 8 an hour in peak.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The only way that this can truly be solved is the sextuplification of the line between strathfield and lidcombe. Then you can put your via regents park services in all you want.

No, because that doesn't address the issue between Cabramatta and Liverpool

There is no issue between Liverpool and Cabramatta especially with 4 platforms at Liverpool. Adding the third track pair allows Bankstown via Lidcombe services to operate without affecting the points at Cabramatta which are high speed and can handle the amount of trains we are talking about in any case. via regents park doesn't need to have 8 trains an hour as Transtopic suggests either and really only needs 2-4 which is easily within the bounds of any capacity issues at the Cabramatta points.

8 Granville, 2 Cumberland and 2-4 via regents park. sefton to carramar does 3570 in 24 hours. Fairfield by itself does 7880 in that same 24 hours. There is no reason whatsoever to reduce via granville services to below 8 an hour in peak.
simstrain

What I envisage @Transtopic is arguing for is something like:

8 tph via Granville
8 tph via Regents Park Express - then onto the suburbans east of Strathfield
4 tph via Regents Park all stops

So where does the Cumberland line fit in?

Also, how do you sequence your departures from Liverpool in 3 min increments so train arrive in neat 3 minute increments at Lidcombe?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


What I envisage @Transtopic is arguing for is something like:

8 tph via Granville
8 tph via Regents Park Express - then onto the suburbans east of Strathfield
4 tph via Regents Park all stops

So where does the Cumberland line fit in?

Also, how do you sequence your departures from Liverpool in 3 min increments so train arrive in neat 3 minute increments at Lidcombe?
djf01
There is no need whatsoever for 12 trains per hour via regents park aside from the fact that it isn't even possible because of the points at lidcombe, cabramatta, sefton and the T5 services. Did you not look at my numbers I posted above where the total number of passengers in 24 hours between sefton and carramar could be handled by 4 waratahs total. Liverpool via regents park only needs 2 trains an hour maximum and 2 trains an hour bankstown via regents park and an assortment of 4 car liverpool to bankstown shuttles.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


What I envisage [b]@Transtopic[/b] is arguing for is something like:

8 tph via Granville
8 tph via Regents Park Express - then onto the suburbans east of Strathfield
4 tph via Regents Park all stops

So where does the Cumberland line fit in?

Also, how do you sequence your departures from Liverpool in 3 min increments so train arrive in neat 3 minute increments at Lidcombe?There is no need whatsoever for 12 trains per hour via regents park aside from the fact that it isn't even possible because of the points at lidcombe, cabramatta, sefton and the T5 services. Did you not look at my numbers I posted above where the total number of passengers in 24 hours between sefton and carramar could be handled by 4 waratahs total. Liverpool via regents park only needs 2 trains an hour maximum and 2 trains an hour bankstown via regents park and an assortment of 4 car liverpool to bankstown shuttles.
simstrain

I'm suggesting 4 stoppers, and 8 express services ex Leppington via Liverpool the regents park.

Besides, capacity is not the point I'm trying to make.  It's about possible timetable configurations when routes diverge then re-converge.

@Transtopic's goal is to create a Liverpool express route.

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