XPT Train accident Wallan

 

Pinned post created by dthead

Posted 5 months ago

  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
I remember reading a gunzel's post that a down Cranbourne train was altered to use the first crossover instead of the second prior to Dandenong so the train went through the 40 km/h point at about 80.  It was uncomfortable for passengers but the train went through OK.  It's very unfortunate this time with the driver and pilot.
route14
I understand that there is supposed to be a significant safety margin above the rated speed built into the design... if the turnout and trackwork is suitably maintained.

I also have to wonder if the XPT was more susceptible to derailment (or if the northern end was simply the worse of the two ends of the loop), since a V/Line N set ended up entering the loop (from the southern end) at 97km/h in 2015:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2015/rair/ro-2015-011/

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  skitz Chief Commissioner

The points at Wallan are good for 40 km/h but entry is controlled by a low speed signal so entry speed is 15 km/h.

Edit: Somerton and McIntyre are the same.
Fatty
Thats right, the turnout is good for 40km/hr.  The 15km/hr comes from the typical opertaing of the loops on that section.  To enter the loop you get a 'C' light (small yellow calling on signal you cant really see unless you're right on it).  The rules for a C light are the points are locked and set, proceed, the next fixed signal may be at stop and the road may be occupied, be prepared to stop short of any obstruction.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

I remember reading a gunzel's post that a down Cranbourne train was altered to use the first crossover instead of the second prior to Dandenong so the train went through the 40 km/h point at about 80.  It was uncomfortable for passengers but the train went through OK.  It's very unfortunate this time with the driver and pilot.
I understand that there is supposed to be a significant safety margin above the rated speed built into the design... if the turnout and trackwork is suitably maintained.

I also have to wonder if the XPT was more susceptible to derailment (or if the northern end was simply the worse of the two ends of the loop), since a V/Line N set ended up entering the loop (from the southern end) at 97km/h in 2015:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2015/rair/ro-2015-011/
TheMeddlingMonk
Fair observation, the turnout in the report (up end) was 1:10 and on the curve (vehicles all settled to the curve).  Would need to know what is installed the other end to be a fair comparison.  1:8.75 would be a typical size for this application, could be enough to make the difference.  It will come out no doubt inthe future report.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Forecast for re-opening is 2200hrs tonight.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Done another split of this thread.

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11400999.htm  - Trackwork future for the NE line 2020 can be seen at this link.

This topic is specifically for the XPT derailment - with no speculation of the cause (therefore blame)

Third  thread created out of this thread.

Enjoy.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Today's Age, 29/2 (can't find a link to it) says that the driver "had pages of written instructions in his cab about a track diversion at what would be the scene of the crash, sources close to the investigation have confirmed.  The documents stated the XPT sydney-Melbourne train would be diverted via a passing loop at Wallan and advised the driver to lower his speed to 15km/h.........It is unclear whether (the driver) or (the pilot) were aware of the contents of the two documents."
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Albury VLine trains not happening. Has the union Black banned it?
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic
Albury VLine trains not happening. Has the union Black banned it?
Carnot
ARTC, since the initial announcement when the line would reopen has put a 80kph speed limit on the entire Victorian section. Rightly so, VLine has decided that's to slow, and have taken the bus option for the foreseeable future as a result.

VLine initially announced they would return Monday., but that was changed pretty quick once the speed limit was anounced
  grime Locomotive Fireman

According to Vline
Coaches will replace all Albury line trains until further notice
29 Feb 2020 9:30PM - 7 Mar 2020 2:00AM


Due to an incident near Wallan, all Albury line trains will be replaced by coaches for the entire journey. Passengers are asked to allow extra time while travelling on the replacement coaches.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
According to Vline
Coaches will replace all Albury line trains until further notice
29 Feb 2020 9:30PM - 7 Mar 2020 2:00AM


Due to an incident near Wallan, all Albury line trains will be replaced by coaches for the entire journey. Passengers are asked to allow extra time while travelling on the replacement coaches.
grime
Would the coaches be any faster than the train, even allowing for the speed restriction?
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

We were supposed to be running Albury trains yesterday (Sunday); they were cancelled either late Saturday night or Sunday morning. None today either, don’t know when they re-start.

Saturday evening XPT arrival into Southern Cross close to 2 hours late, seen from Steamrail’s Camperdown arrival. Didn’t see any XPT last night, don’t know if they are running.

The 80km/h blanket speed restriction imposed by ARTC south of Albury would hit all passenger trains by over an hour.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
We were supposed to be running Albury trains yesterday (Sunday); they were cancelled either late Saturday night or Sunday morning. None today either, don’t know when they re-start.

Saturday evening XPT arrival into Southern Cross close to 2 hours late, seen from Steamrail’s Camperdown arrival. Didn’t see any XPT last night, don’t know if they are running.

The 80km/h blanket speed restriction imposed by ARTC south of Albury would hit all passenger trains by over an hour.
No XPT until further notice

https://transportnsw.info/alerts/details#/6047835
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
No XPT between Melbourne and Albury until further notice.
  M636C Minister for Railways

No XPT between Melbourne and Albury until further notice.
Fatty
In order for the XPT service to operate, a return service should take less than 24 hours.

Otherwise there aren't enough trains to run the service.

Delays of over an hour mean this service can't be operated for the full distance.



Peter
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I don't know if this has been published on this thread before, but the ATSB investigation link: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2020/rair/ro-2020-002/
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Albury VLine trains not happening. Has the union Black banned it?
ARTC, since the initial announcement when the line would reopen has put a 80kph speed limit on the entire Victorian section.
Galron

Does anyone have a link to for this?

It seems to me a blanket 80kph speed limit on the entire Hume Highway is no less justified.

I don't think it it is speculation to conclude that the cause of this crash was the XPT ST23 entered the Wallan loop at or near mainline speed.  Normal safe working practices were not in place at the time.  I think anything beyond that is speculation, and definitely OT for this thread.

However, from these facts I think it's reasonable to conclude that the state of repair of the line - good, bad or something else - was not (directly) the cause of the crash.  

What concerns me is speculation that the state of dis-repair of the NE SG line contributed to the crash in the media - and indeed on this thread at time - has contributed to the ARTC 80kph blanket speed limit.  I cannot see how this crash provides any rational at that at all.  If the ARTC believe the line is not safe to operate above 80kph WTF, why did they wait until people were killed to impose a blanket speed limit?

If it's just a precaution, then IMHO it's up to the ATSB to issue a preliminary finding, outlining their current best estimate of the speed the train entered the loop, and concluding the crash most likely a breakdown in safe working procedures - with more investigative work to be performed - and highly unlikely to be a consequence of the physical state of the perway.  That way ARTC could do the sensible thing and have the 80kph (or perhaps even lower) limit apply only to areas without regular safeworking protection.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Albury VLine trains not happening. Has the union Black banned it?
ARTC, since the initial announcement when the line would reopen has put a 80kph speed limit on the entire Victorian section.

Does anyone have a link to for this?
djf01
https://www.artc.com.au/2020/02/29/wallan-incident-advice-7-repair-and-recovery-updated-26-02-20-1015am-aedt-2/
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

Gee, some of those spin doctors are good. How the alleged theft of copper wires occurred right under the noses of all those investigators, track repairers, media etc is beyond me; bit like their earlier claims of wires stolen when all we could see was aerial wires cut mud-span without any wire actually removed.

It seems ARTC imposes their own 80km/h restriction. Presumably nothing to do with trains falling off tracks, or suffering suspension failures, or passengers complaining about being thrown off the toilet seats. Maybe it was the massive rainfall during February?

Neither track faults nor broken/unmaintained/stolen wires caused the Wallan incident.

VLP plans to run normal service on Tuesday
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
ARTC  imposing a blanket speed limit of 80 km/h for the entire north eastern line seems to me to be a massive vote of no confidence in their own work.
If the track has been maintained properly, leave the speed linit alone. If it hasn't been; why not?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
80kph could be a conservative reaction given they are owned by the Federal Government.  The last thing they'd want is some other incident happening that could be sheeted (rightly or wrongly) to the ARTC and NESG by the media and further impacting the politics.

At least the 80 keeps the freighters going.
  prwise Locomotive Driver

No XPT between Melbourne and Albury until further notice.
In order for the XPT service to operate, a return service should take less than 24 hours.

Otherwise there aren't enough trains to run the service.

Delays of over an hour mean this service can't be operated for the full distance.



Peter
M636C
Would there not be leeway tho'  if sets were rotated in Sydney to different routes.  Have no idea tho' if each route has dedicated sets or not.
  Diverge Beginner

"While various elements are being considered, to further provide confidence to the Regulator, our rail operator customers and the community, we’ll be implementing an interim 80 km/hr speed limit on the line between Melbourne and Albury."

This says it all really.

No doubt drivers will have a good opportunity to report rough rides and then the speed can be lifted once confidence comes back

added link from a few posts up: https://www.artc.com.au/2020/02/29/wallan-incident-advice-7-repair-and-recovery-updated-26-02-20-1015am-aedt-2/
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
"While various elements are being considered, to further provide confidence to the Regulator, our rail operator customers and the community, we’ll be implementing an interim 80 km/hr speed limit on the line between Melbourne and Albury."

This says it all really.
"Diverge"
The very thing it does not do is promote confidence; it translates to, "Jeez, we know that the track is crook; we'll slow things down so that nothing else happens. You're all safer in a bus."

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