Barossa tourist plan derailed as Supreme Court backs State Government

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 21 Apr 2020 21:15
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Do ‘the feds’ ‘own’ any BG in SA? For that matter do they ‘own’ any BG anywhere? I thought not.

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I know that it isn’t accessible at the Dry Creek end, but is there still a broad gauge rail on any of the line from Dry Creek to Pelican Point?

ARTC own that line, but even that is really a lease as the SA Parliament can pass legislation revoking it.
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

But who is going to pay for the track to be fixed even if it is more bandaid's applied. It is not the State Governments problem now to relay that track as all above ground was sold off virtually way back when Don Dunstan sold our country railways to the Commonwealth Govt.  The Commonwealth Govt are not going to relay a railway line simply because one operator wants to run a tourist type train as even they could see it would not be a wise investment. They might if some metal deposit or such like was found up that way, but there is nothing like that at all that is known there other than the Limestone.
The line is owned by DIT, not the Commonwealth.
justapassenger
The line is leased to OneRail, who took over GWRR and those before it.  They have a requirement to maintain it to be openable within fourteen days.  The failure is in ensuring that they are maintaining it to this condition.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I know that it isn’t accessible at the Dry Creek end, but is there still a broad gauge rail on any of the line from Dry Creek to Pelican Point?
justapassenger
Yes this Is dual gauge, but I would Imagine that the complex turnouts/switches of the broad gauge track components will be removed during maintenance, but on simple non complex sections the broad gauge rail will remain.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The line is leased to OneRail, who took over GWRR and those before it.  They have a requirement to maintain it to be openable within fourteen days.  The failure is in ensuring that they are maintaining it to this condition.
gunzel42
They have a requirement to be able to take a service within 14 days of granting access to a third party operator, but no requirement to grant access.

If there was a serious chance of the line being needed for legit operations (i.e. not purely for the purpose of blocking something else) the prospective customer would surely negotiate terms directly with OneRail instead of going through the process of applying for ESCOSA to alter the access regime.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

But who is going to pay for the track to be fixed even if it is more bandaid's applied. It is not the State Governments problem now to relay that track as all above ground was sold off virtually way back when Don Dunstan sold our country railways to the Commonwealth Govt.  The Commonwealth Govt are not going to relay a railway line simply because one operator wants to run a tourist type train as even they could see it would not be a wise investment. They might if some metal deposit or such like was found up that way, but there is nothing like that at all that is known there other than the Limestone.
The line is owned by DIT, not the Commonwealth.
justapassenger
I never said that the Commonwealth owned it at all please read it again what I was saying is that neither the State Govt would put money into it to rebuild it nor would the Federal Govt so if neither of them would be interested into pumping some money into under some scheme or whatever then I doubt a private operator will just to run their tourist train. I admit I could have worded it better, but I thought most would get the drift given the fact that the Commonwealth Govt is and has put money into rail extensions and electrification in the past here.  The Gawler line is being done the same way the State Government provide X amount of dollars and the Federal Govt are topping that up on a ratio basis. I could not see either of them putting anything into a disused branch line to no where really.

The state only own the land on which the railway is laid, all the above ground stuff belongs to One Rail now, and the condition of returning to the state entails removing all above ground stuff, track, bridges, station platforms and any buildings. This was part of the agreement and what a lot forget though. The state through this agreement really want the stuff removed so any company that has not removed any railway line and just left it there is preserving the line for future use.  All the state Govt would do is after the land only was handed back to them is sell it off to local farmers or what ever.  I am not sure but I think this type of agreement only is in force for the ex SAR BG or NG trackage not any other gauge though. I could be wrong on that so do not quote me.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

The line is leased to OneRail, who took over GWRR and those before it.  They have a requirement to maintain it to be openable within fourteen days.  The failure is in ensuring that they are maintaining it to this condition.
They have a requirement to be able to take a service within 14 days of granting access to a third party operator, but no requirement to grant access.

If there was a serious chance of the line being needed for legit operations (i.e. not purely for the purpose of blocking something else) the prospective customer would surely negotiate terms directly with OneRail instead of going through the process of applying for ESCOSA to alter the access regime.
justapassenger
Also it does not state what the service needs to be, a gangers quad might qualify in a lot of places if a service was forced by the State Govt to be done, after all it is on the rails.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The state government has not had an access agreement granted by OneRail and therefore does not have the right to demand their granted access within two weeks of that agreement being granted.

The 14 day rule is about forcing the infrastructure operator to honour any access agreements they make with other train operators, not forcing those access agreements to be created where they do not yet exist.


However long it lasts, my guess is that the OneRail lease of the line will be ended by mutual agreement and not according to the original agreed terms. This has already happened with the Nuriootpa to Angaston section.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Unfortunately the Barossa Valley although non metro is just too close to Adelaide itself to warrant running a train. Now for those really interested the whole track needs to be relaid to be safe to travel on. It has only had bandaid's applied ever since AN was disbanded and before that I don't think AN did any real work on the track. It got to the point where stone trains in a lot of places were travelling walking pace or less than what the Hasler speedo could register anyway, so once past Gawler Central it was a very slow trip, now the stone in the hoppers will not complain about it being slow but passengers most certainly would. By the time you took the train to the Barossa and paid extra to be taken to a couple of wineries at that slow speed you might get to have a taste at the first winery before you had to go back and get on the train to go back to Adelaide.  But as someone pointed out you can drive by car or luxury type bus a lot quicker, see more from the bus actually and visit a lot more places to sample the wine and then come home, again more quickly.

But who is going to pay for the track to be fixed even if it is more bandaid's applied. It is not the State Governments problem now to relay that track as all above ground was sold off virtually way back when Don Dunstan sold our country railways to the Commonwealth Govt.  The Commonwealth Govt are not going to relay a railway line simply because one operator wants to run a tourist type train as even they could see it would not be a wise investment. They might if some metal deposit or such like was found up that way, but there is nothing like that at all that is known there other than the Limestone.

So if the new operator has to relay the track what will be the cost of a ticket. If it was $55 dollars years back when it could be used what would be the cost today $100, $200 or probably a lot more than that. A car load could do that miles cheaper and faster, so could a bus.
"DJPeters"


Its not too close to Adelaide at all, its likely too far. This is the point, no private operation will be viable on its own right to maintain around 30-35km of track with a reasonable track speed.

The only way this line will return to service is under RPT, ie state govt investing in the line (in usual SA style with fed money) and a private operator running on the back of this for offering a higher standard of service including a Champaign breakfast, either as a stand alone train or attached to the same govt train as happens in other countries.

While others frequently comment that trains don't run into wineries, as someone who actually caught the train to the valley, I can assure you there was no lack of different operators to meet the train offering different standards of service from bus to vintage cars to visit the winneries.

It won't happen now, so not holding my breath and for now the SA govt has other priorities, however this is more viable and easier to implement than returning trains to Mt Barker.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

It is too close to Adelaide though you can drive there quicker than any train would which is why bus companies are running a service to the Barossa Valley it is quicker even if the track was completely renewed. The closest piece of Adelaide Suburban Area is Gawler or one of its satellite places.  The way things are going here now it would not be long before Roseworthy is part of the greater Adelaide suburban area. It is pretty close to it now actually it will not take long to build between Gawler and Roseworthy.

The slow part of the trip is the actual trip from Adelaide to Gawler as even if you run express you could catch up to a all stations  Adelaide Metro stopping train and as you cannot pass it you just run on its red lights from wherever to Gawler, once there you can take the track to Gawler Central and be on your way.  Adelaide to Gawler by train takes 55 minutes, then a AM bus trip to Nurioopta  takes another 44 minutes. The bus runs every 4 hours though where the train runs every 30 minutes. All up it will take you 2 hours 39 minutes to get there using this method which is the 810/811 bus from Gawler if you actually make the bus connection otherwise you have to spend 4 hours in Gawler sort of stranded there.

But you can drive or take a private bus direct there from Adelaide that takes 54 minutes from Adelaide Bus station CBD so you can see how most would travel, the full bus option is much quicker and enables you to spend a bit more time in the Barossa than the train would ever do.  By the time the train reached Gawler you would be in Nurioopta if you had travelled by the bus service from Adelaide.

Like I said it is too close to Adelaide where other competing forms of transport can beat it hands down every time.


Are those operators up there that met the trains still want to do that though, possibly the local Taxi maybe but the bus companies I think would want to run the whole route from Adelaide and so make a decent profit to invest in new buses. They would be more interested in long distance trips and charters, etc rather than running a local pick up and drop type operation. But if it could be done again the longer distance on the bus still wins hands down though. Oh and the buses I am talking about are not Adelaide Metro bone shakers from the metro area but modern type long distance coaches which are used on the Barossa service now. Just under a hour in one of these would be a lot better for most people.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It is too close to Adelaide though you can drive there quicker than any train would which is why bus companies are running a service to the Barossa Valley it is quicker even if the track was completely renewed. The closest piece of Adelaide Suburban Area is Gawler or one of its satellite places.  The way things are going here now it would not be long before Roseworthy is part of the greater Adelaide suburban area. It is pretty close to it now actually it will not take long to build between Gawler and Roseworthy.

The slow part of the trip is the actual trip from Adelaide to Gawler as even if you run express you could catch up to a all stations  Adelaide Metro stopping train and as you cannot pass it you just run on its red lights from wherever to Gawler, once there you can take the track to Gawler Central and be on your way.  Adelaide to Gawler by train takes 55 minutes, then a AM bus trip to Nurioopta  takes another 44 minutes. The bus runs every 4 hours though where the train runs every 30 minutes. All up it will take you 2 hours 39 minutes to get there using this method which is the 810/811 bus from Gawler if you actually make the bus connection otherwise you have to spend 4 hours in Gawler sort of stranded there.

But you can drive or take a private bus direct there from Adelaide that takes 54 minutes from Adelaide Bus station CBD so you can see how most would travel, the full bus option is much quicker and enables you to spend a bit more time in the Barossa than the train would ever do.  By the time the train reached Gawler you would be in Nurioopta if you had travelled by the bus service from Adelaide.

Like I said it is too close to Adelaide where other competing forms of transport can beat it hands down every time.


Are those operators up there that met the trains still want to do that though, possibly the local Taxi maybe but the bus companies I think would want to run the whole route from Adelaide and so make a decent profit to invest in new buses. They would be more interested in long distance trips and charters, etc rather than running a local pick up and drop type operation. But if it could be done again the longer distance on the bus still wins hands down though. Oh and the buses I am talking about are not Adelaide Metro bone shakers from the metro area but modern type long distance coaches which are used on the Barossa service now. Just under a hour in one of these would be a lot better for most people.
"DJPeters"


The further the distance the more road will be favorable, if you look at the commuter time travel, the slowest part is closer to Adelaide and then once out of suburbia the bus is sitting 90-100km/h. So unless you are building well aligned 120-140km/h track no.

Adelaide's growth is not Sydney, I'm sure it will happen but it will be along time before the cows need a new home, however should thus happen when ever it happens it justifies returning the line to service with an upgrade.

By train
- Gawler Central to Adelaide is 48min on express service for a distance of 42km, average of 69km/h, eliminate both Gawler central and  and call it an even 70km/h from Gawler Central for 47min.

- Gawler Central to Nuriootpa is 77km, so another 35km. Assume an average speed of 70km/h this is 30min for a total trip time of 77mm (1h 17min). Average speed of 70km/h is pretty slow on a line with only 3 stations and likely no passing loop delays or complicated track work and the section from Lyndoch to terminus (20 of the 35km) is actually fairly straight. So I think this is a practical assumption with a half decent track upgrade, ie concrete sleepers and half decent rail.

By road,
81km  in peak direction and time is similar to above, or as fast as 55min in off-peak. But we all know in peak most commuter rail services are often faster than their road equivalents and in off-peak they are slower.

So Adelaide to Nuriooptia by train off peak, 1:15-20min and by road 55min. Not exactly huge is it. In peak flow and time, they are on par.

Our trip on the BWT was a full day and to be fair I think we were wine toured out by the end. The train was certainly not for everyone and which is why I say it will not return on its own, but rather RPT service with potentially a tourist train option either added to the train or operated separately. RPT does not have to equal an 30min service, there are plenty of examples for similar services in Australia with less.

All those companies that were there before will be there again should the train return, why wouldn't they, they were not there before the BWT? 50-100 people arrive wiling to spend their money, take a guess. Also take a guess how many of us would not have gone if there was no train as I had little interest to sit in just a bus for 8h. Ironically there is probably more opportunity than the BWT had the money to do by exploring additional stop(s) around Jacob's Creek, surprising how many winneries basically have their back door on the railway line when you look. Again I'm not saying you will do a wine tour on solely a train, but its a means to an end.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
My wife and her best friend have their birthdays about a fortnight apart. The best friend has taken it upon herself to arrange a combined birthday event for the two of them - she’s booked ... an afternoon at Chateau Cardboard - even wifey doesn’t want to go to her own birthday event now. My RSVP was ‘no’, to which the friend thought I was kidding.

My wife is sort of/nearly/almost/wants to be/is vegetarian (delete as appropriate according to the day) and she was quite seriously considering my proposal of just sticking a lamb on the spit in the backyard and having everyone here instead.

A sometimes wannabe vegetarian thinks a lamb on a spit in the backyard is better than going to Chateau Cardboard, that has to say something.
  4BJ Chief Commissioner

Location: Backside almost trackside at Hawthorn near Mitcham
I refer you, dear Reader, to page 41 of the November 2020 issue of Catch Point.  My suggestion to Mr Geber, is to sell the railcars so that they can be converted into crew cars, assuming that is possible given their condition.  He could donate Bluebird 102 to the NRM, which would result in the NRM having both 100 class and 250 class Bluebirds in its collection.

I was wrong about one thing.  More than once on these forums, I posted that the next time a Bluebird went to the Barossa would be as a crew car on the Stonie.  Oops!
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

The longer Geber leaves the cars out in the open the worse they are going to get so that in the end all he will have is a load of scrap metal.  The museum cannot put them under cover for him simply because they do not have enough cover to put all their stuff under cover let alone something that does not even belong to the museum.  They will have to be removed one day and then they might get cut up where they stand as that is the cheapest method of moving them.  They cannot now be railed as they are unsafe they have a lot of problems with the bogies on one car and the outside cladding coming off in large pieces in places on them plus other problems as well. So that means trucked out and the nearest place to take them by truck would be to Sims metal scrap yard or whoever cut up the Jumbo railcars at least. It would also be the cheapest distance to move them as well.

Saving them was a good idea but by now a more permanent and under cover storage place would have been a better proposition to have looked into, a Warehouse or some such place would have been ideal and it only need some temporary type trackage laid inside it to stand them on.

Islington Railway Workshops is no longer connected to the Adelaide Metro rail system it has been entirely cut off BG wise it still has SG access though. So they cannot go back there the area is also a lot smaller now at Islington and probably no room now to store them anyway.
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

The longer Geber leaves the cars out in the open the worse they are going to get so that in the end all he will have is a load of scrap metal.  The museum cannot put them under cover for him simply because they do not have enough cover to put all their stuff under cover let alone something that does not even belong to the museum.  They will have to be removed one day and then they might get cut up where they stand as that is the cheapest method of moving them.  They cannot now be railed as they are unsafe they have a lot of problems with the bogies on one car and the outside cladding coming off in large pieces in places on them plus other problems as well. So that means trucked out and the nearest place to take them by truck would be to Sims metal scrap yard or whoever cut up the Jumbo railcars at least. It would also be the cheapest distance to move them as well.

Saving them was a good idea but by now a more permanent and under cover storage place would have been a better proposition to have looked into, a Warehouse or some such place would have been ideal and it only need some temporary type trackage laid inside it to stand them on.

Islington Railway Workshops is no longer connected to the Adelaide Metro rail system it has been entirely cut off BG wise it still has SG access though. So they cannot go back there the area is also a lot smaller now at Islington and probably no room now to store them anyway.
DJPeters
There is still currently a broad gauge connection to Islington Workshops.
  62440 Chief Commissioner



Islington Railway Workshops is no longer connected to the Adelaide Metro rail system it has been entirely cut off BG wise it still has SG access though. So they cannot go back there the area is also a lot smaller now at Islington and probably no room now to store them anyway.There is still currently a broad gauge connection to Islington Workshops.
gunzel42
The crossover and turnout are being removed imminently as part of the electrification project. You can't have unwired leads off the main line without over-run protection. Why would you need it anyway? No BG servicing at Islington.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

Adelaide Metro might have to remove the crossover and point but the track between the mainline point and Islington workshops was removed a while back thus cutting off the BG access to Islington Railway Workshops, as I said it is still connected to the SG at the Northern end of it. Once Adelaide Metro remove the crossover and point which is likely being done in the Electrification works now on the line it will be complete. BG is not now needed at Islington so it gets removed and that is the end of any hope of moving something back to Islington on it own BG bogies.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The owner of Chateau Tanunda John Gerber has hired some lobbyists to try and get the Barossa Wine Train running again - it was a paywalled article behind the News.com paywall so I couldn't read the rest of it.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
The owner of Chateau Tanunda John Gerber has hired some lobbyists to try and get the Barossa Wine Train running again - it was a paywalled article behind the News.com paywall so I couldn't read the rest of it.
don_dunstan

He's engaged Rod Hook, former CEO of the SA Department of Planning Transport & Infrastructure. Maybe the first thing they can advise Mr Geber on is his costings in the Expression of Interest  issued last year for the BWT which underestimated the costs of getting it up and running again by the power of ten. Repairs to the BWT railcars alone will run into the millions, while Geber says they will cost only a few hundred thousand.
  AN830 Locomotive Driver

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
I heard on the grapevine that the crossing at Murray Street in Gawler will be removed as part of the electrification project.
  Cato56 Station Master

Oh my what a shame. I don't think you could justify under RSNL reintroducing a new level crossing where one has been previously decommissioned, not to mention the woeful cost associated with doing so. Then throw Kromers Crossing into the mix... Well it's just not looking good for Mt Geber.

But I suppose Rod Hook is more than happy to see a fool parted with his money.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The owner of Chateau Tanunda John Gerber has hired some lobbyists to try and get the Barossa Wine Train running again - it was a paywalled article behind the News.com paywall so I couldn't read the rest of it.

He's engaged Rod Hook, former CEO of the SA Department of Planning Transport & Infrastructure. Maybe the first thing they can advise Mr Geber on is his costings in the Expression of Interest  issued last year for the BWT which underestimated the costs of getting it up and running again by the power of ten. Repairs to the BWT railcars alone will run into the millions, while Geber says they will cost only a few hundred thousand.
bingley hall
Thanks, I happened to actually read the physical rag later in the day and saw that it was Rod Hook. He may at least be able to give them realistic prices of things as you say....
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Oh my what a shame. I don't think you could justify under RSNL reintroducing a new level crossing where one has been previously decommissioned, not to mention the woeful cost associated with doing so. Then throw Kromers Crossing into the mix... Well it's just not looking good for Mt Geber.

But I suppose Rod Hook is more than happy to see a fool parted with his money.
Cato56
How exactly do you remove a level crossing?
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Oh my what a shame. I don't think you could justify under RSNL reintroducing a new level crossing where one has been previously decommissioned, not to mention the woeful cost associated with doing so. Then throw Kromers Crossing into the mix... Well it's just not looking good for Mt Geber.

But I suppose Rod Hook is more than happy to see a fool parted with his money.
How exactly do you remove a level crossing?
Gayspie
Bridge or Underpass.

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