Barossa tourist plan derailed as Supreme Court backs State Government

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 21 Apr 2020 21:15
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

I have to question why myself along with a number of others here are making negative about trains in the Barossa?

Unlike most I have once caught the BWT to Tanunda for a Barossa experience. Having recently returned from touring overseas I found the service stacked up well against European and US counterparts. It was a success in the early 2000s but probably because it was not facing the high track access and regulatory charges that now apply. Track speeds were still acceptable and the Blue Bird ride excellent.

In 20 years of neglect rail tracks do not last; I was a foundation member of Pichi Richi and we found that out very quickly.

Any viable train run to the Barossa would require enormous amounts of money spent on the track. Then you have to find suitable vehicles which needs money to bring up the current regulatory standards; some of these are now quite draconian. Clapped out Red Hens are not likely to be popular with the tourist public.

Money would be better spent on both Steam Ranger and Pichi Richi, both of which have viable (near) operations and have proven tourism potential but are undercapitalised.

To restore commuter rail to the Barossa implies that Barossa residents want a rail service that will take them to the CBD or perhaps Elizabeth. I am willing to wager that most who might commute from the Barossa don't go to places served conveniently by rail. To make a commuter service viable there must be passengers, that means people living in the catchment area. To get passengers you must build houses, to build houses you must subdivide land, to subdivide land you must cut up vineyards. I now live in the Clare Valley so cynically I can support this, more tourists to Clare. We have a saying up here, "they promote the Barossa to keep the riff-raff out of Clare.

A three times a day train, as proposed above, is not a service acceptable to 21s century commuters used to the flexibility of their own vehicles.

The break of track at Krommer's Crossing does not stop a train running to Tanunda if it was ever viable; the track can be relaid through a roundabout if ever necessary.

As for the local member, I am sure he knows there are more votes in an improved road junction than in a clapped out rail system.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


And there lies the difference, you went on one 20 years ago, and I have been on hundreds in 20 years. Careful, with admissions like yours we will have start calling you 'Vinelander 2' - the original likely thinks running the Overland to the Barossa would be a great idea. I think we can all understand that a business that sets itself up for people like yourself taking one trip in twenty years isn't going to survive too long - hang on, that's exactly what happened - The BWT didn't last!
"Aaron"


Aaron,
I'm sure you have been to lots of tourist places only once. Is that part of the tourism industry most people only go to specific destination once or > 10y.

How many repeat tourists are there for the likes of the The Ghan, IP, Pitchi Richie, Steam Ranger....

How many places have you been only once, but are successful businesses?

You have also incorrectly assumed I only wanted to go once!

Of those who travel to the Barossa as a tourist, what is breakdown?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yep; RTT knows it all; an answer completely full of irrelevancies. My statement does not need expanding.  

Stick to the subject. We all know that you try to manipulate the subject to what you want it to be, but this subject is and remains the Barossa in 2020.

Trying to make a comparison by saying that we should cancel things that still exist today because you haven't used it in x years is the height of lunacy and would be laughed out of court.

I'll put it to you very simply. What you did in August 2000 is irrelevant to today's discussion because you can't do it today. It's not that it's unused; it's out of service and has been for years, so forget all of your red herrings.

People on the spot have looked at it, and the court has looked at it.  I'll take their observations on board and ignore your prattlings about something you haven't seen in 2020 and know nothing about in 2020.  As you are extremely fond of saying, let's move on!
"Valvegear"


RP is a forum for those to express opinion and ideas. On this topic I did, as have others, not all are in agreement, just simple ideas, no one but you and the wosh cheer squad made it personal and again going off on a rant and then blaming others for going off-topic.

You obviously love an audience, however why don't you PM me and save the others although I doubt its your style.

Yes VG we are talking about today and going forward, you are the one dragging up the past.

As for the court decision, yes, have I said the court was wrong? No, just expressing an idea otherwise whats the point of a forum, may as well just read the news article because VG and his cheer squad say that's it, no discussion. You on the other hand a previous history of trying to deny the content of the Border Protection ACT.

So again, if you want to carry on off topic, PM me!

Back to the Barrosa Railway....
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have to question why myself along with a number of others here are making negative about trains in the Barossa?

Unlike most I have once caught the BWT to Tanunda for a Barossa experience. Having recently returned from touring overseas I found the service stacked up well against European and US counterparts. It was a success in the early 2000s but probably because it was not facing the high track access and regulatory charges that now apply. Track speeds were still acceptable and the Blue Bird ride excellent.

In 20 years of neglect rail tracks do not last; I was a foundation member of Pichi Richi and we found that out very quickly.

Any viable train run to the Barossa would require enormous amounts of money spent on the track. Then you have to find suitable vehicles which needs money to bring up the current regulatory standards; some of these are now quite draconian. Clapped out Red Hens are not likely to be popular with the tourist public.

Money would be better spent on both Steam Ranger and Pichi Richi, both of which have viable (near) operations and have proven tourism potential but are undercapitalised.

To restore commuter rail to the Barossa implies that Barossa residents want a rail service that will take them to the CBD or perhaps Elizabeth. I am willing to wager that most who might commute from the Barossa don't go to places served conveniently by rail. To make a commuter service viable there must be passengers, that means people living in the catchment area. To get passengers you must build houses, to build houses you must subdivide land, to subdivide land you must cut up vineyards. I now live in the Clare Valley so cynically I can support this, more tourists to Clare. We have a saying up here, "they promote the Barossa to keep the riff-raff out of Clare.

A three times a day train, as proposed above, is not a service acceptable to 21s century commuters used to the flexibility of their own vehicles.

The break of track at Krommer's Crossing does not stop a train running to Tanunda if it was ever viable; the track can be relaid through a roundabout if ever necessary.

As for the local member, I am sure he knows there are more votes in an improved road junction than in a clapped out rail system.
"steam4ian"


You wouldn't use aging rollingstock in a regular service, just grab the 3000/3100 class as electrification takes over.

3 x day was an example and its done elsewhere in Australia as well as OS, but could be boosted in frequency.  

Yes, 35km of track basically needs likely major ballast upgrade and and minimum 50% sleeper replacement, cost???

Pichi Richi (PR) and Steam Ranger are Heritage Rail operations, likely deserving of some govt injection and I think PR has received in the past. The Barossa is a bit different. From Barossa Herald 2015, ~750kpa day trippers, 500kpa Over night domestic and over 100k Overnight foreign. Roughly 4000 visitors a day but likely skewed more for weekends and certain times of year + what ever commuters and day trippers to the city. Is it enough to support a few trips a day DMU and justify the capital upgrade ????
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

RTT asks the question "Roughly 4000 visitors a day but likely skewed more for weekends and certain times of year + what ever commuters and day trippers to the city. Is it enough to support a few trips a day DMU and justify the capital upgrade ???".

Of the 4000, how many would chose rail over private vehicle or tour bus? Let's be very , very optimistic and say 1000.
At 1000 return trips pd @ $20 per round trip that's a gross revenue of $7,300,000 pa. this seems a lot but again it is based on very optimistic predictions
Deduct from that labour costs and equipment operating costs. Equipment operating costs are dependent on demand; fewer bums=fewer seats =fewer DEMU's and to a lesser extent fewer crew.

Capital works will have to include  the following
Significant work on the trackbed, nothing has been done for about 40 years so drainage cesses will be blocked.
Ballast is significantly choked and will need cleaning and some replacement.
A 1 in 2 sleeper replacement is highly optimistic.
The rail should be mostly OK, I think it is at least 80lb.

At least one crossing loop, probably Lyndoch, will be necessary.
Active LX protection will need to be reinstated; it is quite staggering what one set-up of flashing lights costs.
A safeworking system will be needed. In these days of mobile phones with GPS a relatively simple and moderate cost system should be possible,
The 3000 class units will need modification to incorporate detention toilets; its amazing what a few drinks do to the human bladder.

There are people here better equipped than I to put real money figures into this assessment.

My guess is that only the very optimistic traffic expectation would have any chance of stacking up.

As I said earlier, the voters of the Barossa have made their decision and voted with their accelerator feet.

Good luck!
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

About 20 or so years ago it cost about $1m per Kilometre or so to up grade a track from the ground up, it would cost a lot more today to do it and if it was replaced then a wise man would use concrete sleepers on it. So to put that into todays figures say about $4m a kilometre or there abouts now 35Km is not that far really but look at the cost of just the track itself is. That works out at $140m just to fix the track and remember there is no freight traffic on this line at all. So that is before you even run anything on your nice new track.

Now as has been said if you want to attract proper tourists not just railway enthusiasts then you will need a train that comes up to modern standards of what they expect. So getting something modern to run would be the way to go. Easier to gets parts if needed as well, try getting something for say a Red Hen that is over 50 years old now, you might be able to but the longer they are in service the harder it will be to get those parts and the prices will go through the roof in the end. What is the cost of a a new railcar set or sets as you would need to have a spare set just in case of and to rotate to help maintenance etc.

Then you need all the paperwork signed off for all inspections or whatever and that does not come cheap either, also insurance of all types just in case of as well. You need to be an accredited operator as well and again big money is needed here just to get you accredited you do not simply walk into a office get your check book out and pay for it and walk out with your accreditation form in hand you have to prove that you can operate a train with in the new rules and regulations and understand them fully.

So really anyone who wants to take on a thing like this is going to have to have a bottomless pit of money and will need more money in the future to keep it all going nothing lasts forever.

One thing that most people like to do is go places at their leisure not to someone else's timetable and being only approx 35 km from the nearest part of the Metro area then most would drive there to have a full day to have a look fully around the Barossa Valley. Sure the train operator can use local buses to get you around but a car is a lot more convenient to just about all the places and you have boot space to bring back the grog that you buy as well if you do of course. The car starts from your house and returns you to your house, with the train you have to get to Adelaide Station, pay to park the car somewhere, pay and go on the train trip and then drive home again after. You can clearly see here driving up there in the family car has plenty of advantages over a train trip.  One person is dedicated as the non drinking driver for the day and you have it made.

Now after all the above things needed what will be the cost of the ticket up and back remember you have to make a bit of profit to keep the enterprise operating. So you are going to have to charge pretty steep prices to get there to do that and most of us today look at the cheapest price to obtain something not the dearest price. Just putting up a Metro Ticket price up a $1 sends howls of protest from commuters.

Always look at ideas like this from the point of view of a Joe Average someone who would like to go to some place maybe once or twice in ten years but is not a rail enthusiast though.
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

The $150K that John Geber wasted in the courts would have been a good head start on paying for the cost of level crossing equipment at Kroemer Crossing.  The regulatory burden will cost significantly more.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT asks the question "Roughly 4000 visitors a day but likely skewed more for weekends and certain times of year + what ever commuters and day trippers to the city. Is it enough to support a few trips a day DMU and justify the capital upgrade ???".

Of the 4000, how many would chose rail over private vehicle or tour bus? Let's be very , very optimistic and say 1000.
At 1000 return trips pd @ $20 per round trip that's a gross revenue of $7,300,000 pa. this seems a lot but again it is based on very optimistic predictions
Deduct from that labour costs and equipment operating costs. Equipment operating costs are dependent on demand; fewer bums=fewer seats =fewer DEMU's and to a lesser extent fewer crew.

Capital works will have to include  the following
Significant work on the trackbed, nothing has been done for about 40 years so drainage cesses will be blocked.
Ballast is significantly choked and will need cleaning and some replacement.
A 1 in 2 sleeper replacement is highly optimistic.
The rail should be mostly OK, I think it is at least 80lb.

At least one crossing loop, probably Lyndoch, will be necessary.
Active LX protection will need to be reinstated; it is quite staggering what one set-up of flashing lights costs.
A safeworking system will be needed. In these days of mobile phones with GPS a relatively simple and moderate cost system should be possible,
The 3000 class units will need modification to incorporate detention toilets; its amazing what a few drinks do to the human bladder.

There are people here better equipped than I to put real money figures into this assessment.

My guess is that only the very optimistic traffic expectation would have any chance of stacking up.

As I said earlier, the voters of the Barossa have made their decision and voted with their accelerator feet.

Good luck!
steam4ian
Thanks for your input,

I would have said you might get 10-20% of the total number on a train, so 400-800. Its worth noting the Belair line is reportedly popular on weekends for people to ride their bikes through a park.

The upgrade costs is what it is, but certainly a fraction of the cost of the Flinders extension per km.

The commuter potential is comparable to Laptstone - Sringwood section of the Blue Mountains Line in population and distance and takes roughly 80-90min from Springwood to Central. Similar to what is likely achievable on Barossa Line if upgraded to similar standard to the rest of Adelaide network. The commuter fare is similar to what you said at $20 return, less off-peak.

As a heritage/tourist only operation it will not survive, this part is clear. As a RPT line will it generate at a profit, not a chance!  Just like almost every other RPT commuter line in the country. So why do it? Why build and fund any commuter line? Difference with this one is that you are likely to get a reasonable number of counter flow patronage, which is more than can be said for most commuter lines.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
About 20 or so years ago it cost about $1m per Kilometre or so to up grade a track from the ground up, it would cost a lot more today to do it and if it was replaced then a wise man would use concrete sleepers on it. So to put that into todays figures say about $4m a kilometre or there abouts now 35Km is not that far really but look at the cost of just the track itself is. That works out at $140m just to fix the track and remember there is no freight traffic on this line at all. So that is before you even run anything on your nice new track.

Now as has been said if you want to attract proper tourists not just railway enthusiasts then you will need a train that comes up to modern standards of what they expect. So getting something modern to run would be the way to go. Easier to gets parts if needed as well, try getting something for say a Red Hen that is over 50 years old now, you might be able to but the longer they are in service the harder it will be to get those parts and the prices will go through the roof in the end. What is the cost of a a new railcar set or sets as you would need to have a spare set just in case of and to rotate to help maintenance etc.

Then you need all the paperwork signed off for all inspections or whatever and that does not come cheap either, also insurance of all types just in case of as well. You need to be an accredited operator as well and again big money is needed here just to get you accredited you do not simply walk into a office get your check book out and pay for it and walk out with your accreditation form in hand you have to prove that you can operate a train with in the new rules and regulations and understand them fully.

So really anyone who wants to take on a thing like this is going to have to have a bottomless pit of money and will need more money in the future to keep it all going nothing lasts forever.

One thing that most people like to do is go places at their leisure not to someone else's timetable and being only approx 35 km from the nearest part of the Metro area then most would drive there to have a full day to have a look fully around the Barossa Valley. Sure the train operator can use local buses to get you around but a car is a lot more convenient to just about all the places and you have boot space to bring back the grog that you buy as well if you do of course. The car starts from your house and returns you to your house, with the train you have to get to Adelaide Station, pay to park the car somewhere, pay and go on the train trip and then drive home again after. You can clearly see here driving up there in the family car has plenty of advantages over a train trip.  One person is dedicated as the non drinking driver for the day and you have it made.

Now after all the above things needed what will be the cost of the ticket up and back remember you have to make a bit of profit to keep the enterprise operating. So you are going to have to charge pretty steep prices to get there to do that and most of us today look at the cheapest price to obtain something not the dearest price. Just putting up a Metro Ticket price up a $1 sends howls of protest from commuters.

Always look at ideas like this from the point of view of a Joe Average someone who would like to go to some place maybe once or twice in ten years but is not a rail enthusiast though.
DJPeters
Thanks for input, however I would say $4m /km to return a simple single track line through the country side that exists to service would be on the far side of very high, unless of course there are major infrastructure requirements. 20 years ago QR built a heavy coal line for $10/km and the NT line was built for not much more than $1m/km.

The line will not be viable on tourism alone nor will it for gunzels, so why target such small potential. It will definitely need commuter traffic to help justify the ongoing govt subsidy of the line like any other commuter line and hence use the existing Adelaide Metro 3000/3100 DMU's if a few sets become available after extension of the O/H to Gawler. If you had to buy new stock, certainly no chance.

One thing that wasn't lacking for the previous BWT was operators to meet the train and take people around, the choices of transport that met the train was long including these https://barossauniquetours.com.au/tours/ andhttps://www.amazingbarossa.com.au/ and Others , which still exist today, some of which start in the valley and others in Adelaide. But yes the attractiveness of the car is clear.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Is there a business plan?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Nobody who lives in the Barossa Valley WANTS a commuter railway line in their community. They already have lots of suburban development at Angaston and elsewhere - you can take the Northern Expressway all the way from Angaston to Regency Road now without encountering a single traffic light - that in itself has been spurring urban development out there.

The locals don't want more reasons for retirees and Mc Mansion estates to keep developing out there - for that reason you'll be pushing the proverbial up a hill trying to get that railway line going.

If there was ever to be an extension of suburban services in Adelaide then the only really likely candidates are Mt Barker or Virginia. Mt Barker in particular as it's a huge growth area (despite the state government trying to prevent growth in the Hills) and it could take pressure off Glen Osmond Road.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Is there a business plan?
allan
There is lobbying underway to establish the conditions in which someone might think there is a case for it.

The $150K that John Geber wasted in the courts would have been a good head start on paying for the cost of level crossing equipment at Kroemer Crossing.  The regulatory burden will cost significantly more.
gunzel42
But that wouldn't have done anything for either his main aim (hobbling his competitors who had successfully lobbied for the roundabout and contributed their share of the funding) or his unfunded proposal (i.e. thought bubble) to play trains to Tanunda.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The $150K that John Geber wasted in the courts would have been a good head start on paying for the cost of level crossing equipment at Kroemer Crossing.  The regulatory burden will cost significantly more.
But that wouldn't have done anything for either his main aim (hobbling his competitors who had successfully lobbied for the roundabout and contributed their share of the funding) or his unfunded proposal (i.e. thought bubble) to play trains to Tanunda.
justapassenger
I am a huge fan (and regular consumer) of Mr Geber's Chateau Tanunda wines.

As far as this ex-Croweater is concerned Mr Geber can waste his own $$$ wherever he likes - the amount of $$$ that he sunk in to resurrecting the winery from the state that it had been left in by the previous owners is amazing.

I wonder how many people in the Barossa owe their livelihoods to his largesse.

The Small Winemakers Centre that they established at the Cellar Door alone has given so many small winemakers their start.

I raise a glass to you Sir!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Some ripper quotes in this article

https://www.barossaherald.com.au/story/6724949/kroemers-crossing-project-further-delayed/

including this one from Mr Geber ""I am the only person standing up, and it's costing me well over $100,000 to run this supreme court action against transport minister Stephan Knoll, who is using state funds. If he worked for me, I'd sack him for spending money that isn't his"

Gold!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Nobody who lives in the Barossa Valley WANTS a commuter railway line in their community. They already have lots of suburban development at Angaston and elsewhere - you can take the Northern Expressway all the way from Angaston to Regency Road now without encountering a single traffic light - that in itself has been spurring urban development out there.

The locals don't want more reasons for retirees and Mc Mansion estates to keep developing out there - for that reason you'll be pushing the proverbial up a hill trying to get that railway line going.

If there was ever to be an extension of suburban services in Adelaide then the only really likely candidates are Mt Barker or Virginia. Mt Barker in particular as it's a huge growth area (despite the state government trying to prevent growth in the Hills) and it could take pressure off Glen Osmond Road.
"don_dunstan"


According to Google traffic its 1h and 5min today vs 1h 25min for a 7am departure during the week to down town Adelaide. So really not that much slower than a half decent rail service of 90min. In a rare state of bad planning by the railways, its actually slightly shorter by rail than driving, station to station.

Population growth, well we are in Sth Aust and a rural area at this. A report by the SA govt May 2019 that looks at the Mid north/Yorke and Barossa Valley shows a forecast of around 0.6% for mid range projections and 0.8% for high growth over next 25 years.  So I don't think we will see a Syd style sprawl.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Some ripper quotes in this article

https://www.barossaherald.com.au/story/6724949/kroemers-crossing-project-further-delayed/

including this one from Mr Geber ""I am the only person standing up, and it's costing me well over $100,000 to run this supreme court action against transport minister Stephan Knoll, who is using state funds. If he worked for me, I'd sack him for spending money that isn't his"

Gold!
"BrentonGolding"


The BWT never ran past Tanunda. If they do build that round about and I suspect they will, the rail line is effectively truncated as no way you want to run a train through the centre of a round about. You could I suppose re route it around, but messy.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

If they do build that round about and I suspect they will, the rail line is effectively truncated as no way you want to run a train through the centre of a round about. You could I suppose re route it around, but messy.
RTT_Rules
The design of the Kroemer's Crossing roundabout does cater for the track to be reinstalled through the roundabout if required. It would be quite a small component of the work needed to get the route up and running again.

Kroemer's Crossing will have a larger Euro-style roundabout, but in principle it would be similar to those in Kadina and Mildura (1) and Mildura (2). Interestingly, you'll see that the tracks through all of those roundabouts are 1435/1600 dual gauge, the Kadina one having been operated on both gauges and the track through the Mildura ones having been rebuilt as such in preparation for the standardisation project.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If they do build that round about and I suspect they will, the rail line is effectively truncated as no way you want to run a train through the centre of a round about. You could I suppose re route it around, but messy.
RTT_Rules
The design of the Kroemer's Crossing roundabout does cater for the track to be reinstalled through the roundabout if required. It would be quite a small component of the work needed to get the route up and running again.

Kroemer's Crossing will have a larger Euro-style roundabout, but in principle it would be similar to those in Kadina and Mildura (1) and Mildura (2). Interestingly, you'll see that the tracks through all of those roundabouts are 1435/1600 dual gauge, the Kadina one having been operated on both gauges and the track through the Mildura ones having been rebuilt as such in preparation for the standardisation project.
"justapassenger"


Thanks, I suppose if its in the middle you have boom gates on each end perpendicular to the road.  I'll let people to decide themselves if this is suited for RPT service in this day and age which is the only way I believe this line will ever return to service, although not anytime soon, if indeed ever.
  allan Chief Commissioner



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gmmczHsUFw

Go to 1:35 to see the American way. No boom gates, no flashing lights, not even a bell. Just crossbucks (with lettering...).
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Some ripper quotes in this article

https://www.barossaherald.com.au/story/6724949/kroemers-crossing-project-further-delayed/

including this one from Mr Geber ""I am the only person standing up, and it's costing me well over $100,000 to run this supreme court action against transport minister Stephan Knoll, who is using state funds. If he worked for me, I'd sack him for spending money that isn't his"

Gold!
BrentonGolding
That's not gold, that's stupid. What would Gerber do if Gerber worked for Gerber and spent six figures on a frivolous court case that had zero prospect of winning? The man is a lunatic.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The $150K that John Geber wasted in the courts would have been a good head start on paying for the cost of level crossing equipment at Kroemer Crossing.  The regulatory burden will cost significantly more.
But that wouldn't have done anything for either his main aim (hobbling his competitors who had successfully lobbied for the roundabout and contributed their share of the funding) or his unfunded proposal (i.e. thought bubble) to play trains to Tanunda.
I am a huge fan (and regular consumer) of Mr Geber's Chateau Tanunda wines.
BrentonGolding
I'd say you're the first one I know, but I don't know you, so I still don't know anyone that likes their product.

Seriously, I'd rather drink a vat of Jacob's Creek, and they export most of their product for a reason. I can honestly say there's not a single wine at Chateau Tanunda that interests me, and there is not a single winery I'd skip to fit CT into a tour. I actually went there three years ago with my (foreign) parents in law and some of their 'local' friends who suggested that we go there on tour. I felt the need to apologise to my father in law on the drive back to Adelaide for not vetoing the stop at CT - he simply said 'yes, this was not a good one'.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The $150K that John Geber wasted in the courts would have been a good head start on paying for the cost of level crossing equipment at Kroemer Crossing.  The regulatory burden will cost significantly more.
But that wouldn't have done anything for either his main aim (hobbling his competitors who had successfully lobbied for the roundabout and contributed their share of the funding) or his unfunded proposal (i.e. thought bubble) to play trains to Tanunda.
I am a huge fan (and regular consumer) of Mr Geber's Chateau Tanunda wines.
I'd say you're the first one I know, but I don't know you, so I still don't know anyone that likes their product.

Seriously, I'd rather drink a vat of Jacob's Creek, and they export most of their product for a reason. I can honestly say there's not a single wine at Chateau Tanunda that interests me, and there is not a single winery I'd skip to fit CT into a tour. I actually went there three years ago with my (foreign) parents in law and some of their 'local' friends who suggested that we go there on tour. I felt the need to apologise to my father in law on the drive back to Adelaide for not vetoing the stop at CT - he simply said 'yes, this was not a good one'.
Aaron
Good, all the more for me and my friends and family who enjoy their products not to mention the absolutely beautiful buildings and surrounds which one encounters on a cellar door visit.

Oh and as for your previous comments, you miss the point entirely - it is his money and he can do with it as he pleases. This rule however does not apply to Government at any level nor any organisation that is public funded or has shareholders.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So what money do you think governments and corporations ought to spend then? Presumably none, because none of it is ‘their own’? You’re in the same boat he is, no wonder you like the product, sounds like two nut bags have found each other.

We elect governments to raise and spend money as they see fit. We have processes in place to ensure that monies are not misused, and in this case the case was won (unsurprisingly to everyone except Mr Geber) so I think you’ll struggle to allege the funds were in any way misused.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
You’re in the same boat he is, no wonder you like the product, sounds like two nut bags have found each other.
Aaron
You Sir are a tool.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

We elect governments to raise and spend money as they see fit. We have processes in place to ensure that monies are not misused, and in this case the case was won (unsurprisingly to everyone except Mr Geber) so I think you’ll struggle to allege the funds were in any way misused.
Aaron
There are also processes in place to ensure that the judicial system is not misused.

I hope that at least one of these mechanisms (Geber paying the costs for the government's defence against his frivolous action) has been applied and a declaration made that he be required him to lodge a deposit for the defendant's costs next time he brings a civil action.

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