Barossa tourist plan derailed as Supreme Court backs State Government

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 21 Apr 2020 21:15
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gmmczHsUFw

Go to 1:35 to see the American way. No boom gates, no flashing lights, not even a bell. Just crossbucks (with lettering...).
"allan"


I saw this recently, very interesting. I've been watching a number of unusual US based rail video's of late. Alot of it doesn't align with what you would think of US litigious culture and other safety comments you see in RP forums. For example

- Shunters riding trains hanging off wagons
- trains running on lines completely covered in undergrowth, rails not visual.
- trains running across unprotected LX
- trains crossing LX with gates and lights in fault by what looks nothing more than stop and go prior to crossing the road.
- shunters playing traffic control
- free wheeling wagons on a track with single set of points so the single loco can swap ends and swap from pulling to pushing wagons
- Reverse running of pax trains so last passenger cars are the drivers cab, the loco at the rear. The justification for retaining loco hauled is because the loco is the battering ram for LX infringements.  

Anyway, back to SA. While I think there would be some tolerance for the odd Heritage rail or even freight train crossing that LX, however I'm not sure about RPT DMU's.

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  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

Gebers train is rapidly turning into a pile of scrap metal and he may have the train and a railway station but what he needs is the railway track to run on. So all he has to do is purchase it from G&W or Onerail I think it is now bring it to a safe standard for running and maintain the track at his expense and he can run his train. But to be polite if he cannot maintain his train properly then how will he maintain the track.

The Wine train now is virtually a wreck almost all the window rubber seals are shot this lets water into the cars also the roofs leak as well and again water can get into the cars. Last time it was opened up to move it, it was noted that mould and mildew is now firmly entrenched inside the cars. Also in places on the outside of the cars things are coming adrift in one place a large section of the fluting on one car is just holding on by a wing and a prayer. To be honest the cars would need to be stripped to the frames and fully rebuilt just to get it accredited let alone run or be towed. The longer it sits in the open then the worse it will get.

Also one end of the 100 trailer car I think it is sits lower by a good 250mm or more and that could mean something has collapsed or broken and needs fixing, I was told it could be on the bogie that this has happened though. The problem is there whatever it is.

So really I do not understand why he spent that $100,000 trying to save 120 metres of railway line when he could have spent that money on fixing up his train.

Also the three cars have been requested to be removed from the National Railway Museum ASAP but so far not a thing has been done they are still there but if they are not removed after a legal determined time one wonders what will happen to them, they might just get scrapped where they stand as that might well be the outcome of it.  I am not saying it will but there are not many options left for Mr Geber and his train.

The cars will need to be trucked out from the NRM though as I don't think in their present state they would be allowed to be towed elsewhere and then one has to ask just where can they go to as well. Trucking them will require them to be lifted up so not only will three trucks be needed or one truck making three trips but also two cranes to lift them and cranes most likely will be needed at both ends to load and unload them. This is something that anyone that would like to buy them from Mr Geber has to understand if you purchase the cars then they have to be removed from the NRM at the buyers expense.

The cost to remove them to be honest is probably more than the cars are now worth.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Gebers train is rapidly turning into a pile of scrap metal and he may have the train and a railway station but what he needs is the railway track to run on. So all he has to do is purchase it from G&W or Onerail I think it is now bring it to a safe standard for running and maintain the track at his expense and he can run his train. But to be polite if he cannot maintain his train properly then how will he maintain the track.

The Wine train now is virtually a wreck almost all the window rubber seals are shot this lets water into the cars also the roofs leak as well and again water can get into the cars. Last time it was opened up to move it, it was noted that mould and mildew is now firmly entrenched inside the cars. Also in places on the outside of the cars things are coming adrift in one place a large section of the fluting on one car is just holding on by a wing and a prayer. To be honest the cars would need to be stripped to the frames and fully rebuilt just to get it accredited let alone run or be towed. The longer it sits in the open then the worse it will get.

Also one end of the 100 trailer car I think it is sits lower by a good 250mm or more and that could mean something has collapsed or broken and needs fixing, I was told it could be on the bogie that this has happened though. The problem is there whatever it is.

So really I do not understand why he spent that $100,000 trying to save 120 metres of railway line when he could have spent that money on fixing up his train.

Also the three cars have been requested to be removed from the National Railway Museum ASAP but so far not a thing has been done they are still there but if they are not removed after a legal determined time one wonders what will happen to them, they might just get scrapped where they stand as that might well be the outcome of it.  I am not saying it will but there are not many options left for Mr Geber and his train.

The cars will need to be trucked out from the NRM though as I don't think in their present state they would be allowed to be towed elsewhere and then one has to ask just where can they go to as well. Trucking them will require them to be lifted up so not only will three trucks be needed or one truck making three trips but also two cranes to lift them and cranes most likely will be needed at both ends to load and unload them. This is something that anyone that would like to buy them from Mr Geber has to understand if you purchase the cars then they have to be removed from the NRM at the buyers expense.

The cost to remove them to be honest is probably more than the cars are now worth.
DJPeters
I had heard that Geber had acquired the ex SGR Red Hens destined to go to Mornington from a comrade of mine. Would this be true or just Gunzel idealism?
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

Gebers train is rapidly turning into a pile of scrap metal and he may have the train and a railway station but what he needs is the railway track to run on. So all he has to do is purchase it from G&W or Onerail I think it is now bring it to a safe standard for running and maintain the track at his expense and he can run his train. But to be polite if he cannot maintain his train properly then how will he maintain the track.

The Wine train now is virtually a wreck almost all the window rubber seals are shot this lets water into the cars also the roofs leak as well and again water can get into the cars. Last time it was opened up to move it, it was noted that mould and mildew is now firmly entrenched inside the cars. Also in places on the outside of the cars things are coming adrift in one place a large section of the fluting on one car is just holding on by a wing and a prayer. To be honest the cars would need to be stripped to the frames and fully rebuilt just to get it accredited let alone run or be towed. The longer it sits in the open then the worse it will get.

Also one end of the 100 trailer car I think it is sits lower by a good 250mm or more and that could mean something has collapsed or broken and needs fixing, I was told it could be on the bogie that this has happened though. The problem is there whatever it is.

So really I do not understand why he spent that $100,000 trying to save 120 metres of railway line when he could have spent that money on fixing up his train.

Also the three cars have been requested to be removed from the National Railway Museum ASAP but so far not a thing has been done they are still there but if they are not removed after a legal determined time one wonders what will happen to them, they might just get scrapped where they stand as that might well be the outcome of it.  I am not saying it will but there are not many options left for Mr Geber and his train.

The cars will need to be trucked out from the NRM though as I don't think in their present state they would be allowed to be towed elsewhere and then one has to ask just where can they go to as well. Trucking them will require them to be lifted up so not only will three trucks be needed or one truck making three trips but also two cranes to lift them and cranes most likely will be needed at both ends to load and unload them. This is something that anyone that would like to buy them from Mr Geber has to understand if you purchase the cars then they have to be removed from the NRM at the buyers expense.

The cost to remove them to be honest is probably more than the cars are now worth.
I had heard that Geber had acquired the ex SGR Red Hens destined to go to Mornington from a comrade of mine. Would this be true or just Gunzel idealism?
Dangersdan707
I don't know for sure but I think it could be just some gunzel idealism more than anything. Other than for historic type trips Red Hens might be a step downward in comfort from his errrrr Bluebirds. And to upgrade them might be costly. it could be done of course but deep pockets would be needed.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
You’re in the same boat he is, no wonder you like the product, sounds like two nut bags have found each other.
You Sir are a tool.
BrentonGolding
That's the best you can do? You must be slower than Australia Post's parcel delivery service.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
We elect governments to raise and spend money as they see fit. We have processes in place to ensure that monies are not misused, and in this case the case was won (unsurprisingly to everyone except Mr Geber) so I think you’ll struggle to allege the funds were in any way misused.
There are also processes in place to ensure that the judicial system is not misused.

I hope that at least one of these mechanisms (Geber paying the costs for the government's defence against his frivolous action) has been applied and a declaration made that he be required him to lodge a deposit for the defendant's costs next time he brings a civil action.
justapassenger
Frivolous? Yes, but in court he should be called vexatious.

After his comments in the Barossa Herald wouldn't it indeed be humorous to see the government litigate for costs, and win.

Geber could then employ Knoll, presumably Geber would highly regard Knoll for his ability to withdraw funds from suckers, something that Mr Geber's business model relies on.
  Cato56 Station Master

Chateau Tanunda make average at best tourist wine. Went there last time I was in the Barossa purely for the novelty value of the property, I did not bother with a tasting. I guess you have to give it credit as an operation for attracting tourists but it does nothing for the region by the way of the wine it produces. The flip side is mega wineries like this are sucking up visitors to the region that could be patronising more deserving smaller wineries that are actually producing interesting wine.

But as laughable the idea that Cheteau Tununda is an important Barossa winery, it pales in comparison to the farce that is Geber and anyone who thinks any revival of the Barossa Wine Train would be a viable investment.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Gebers train is rapidly turning into a pile of scrap metal and he may have the train and a railway station but what he needs is the railway track to run on. So all he has to do is purchase it from G&W or Onerail I think it is now bring it to a safe standard for running and maintain the track at his expense and he can run his train. But to be polite if he cannot maintain his train properly then how will he maintain the track.

The Wine train now is virtually a wreck almost all the window rubber seals are shot this lets water into the cars also the roofs leak as well and again water can get into the cars. Last time it was opened up to move it, it was noted that mould and mildew is now firmly entrenched inside the cars. Also in places on the outside of the cars things are coming adrift in one place a large section of the fluting on one car is just holding on by a wing and a prayer. To be honest the cars would need to be stripped to the frames and fully rebuilt just to get it accredited let alone run or be towed. The longer it sits in the open then the worse it will get.

Also one end of the 100 trailer car I think it is sits lower by a good 250mm or more and that could mean something has collapsed or broken and needs fixing, I was told it could be on the bogie that this has happened though. The problem is there whatever it is.

So really I do not understand why he spent that $100,000 trying to save 120 metres of railway line when he could have spent that money on fixing up his train.

Also the three cars have been requested to be removed from the National Railway Museum ASAP but so far not a thing has been done they are still there but if they are not removed after a legal determined time one wonders what will happen to them, they might just get scrapped where they stand as that might well be the outcome of it.  I am not saying it will but there are not many options left for Mr Geber and his train.

The cars will need to be trucked out from the NRM though as I don't think in their present state they would be allowed to be towed elsewhere and then one has to ask just where can they go to as well. Trucking them will require them to be lifted up so not only will three trucks be needed or one truck making three trips but also two cranes to lift them and cranes most likely will be needed at both ends to load and unload them. This is something that anyone that would like to buy them from Mr Geber has to understand if you purchase the cars then they have to be removed from the NRM at the buyers expense.

The cost to remove them to be honest is probably more than the cars are now worth.
I had heard that Geber had acquired the ex SGR Red Hens destined to go to Mornington from a comrade of mine. Would this be true or just Gunzel idealism?
I don't know for sure but I think it could be just some gunzel idealism more than anything. Other than for historic type trips Red Hens might be a step downward in comfort from his errrrr Bluebirds. And to upgrade them might be costly. it could be done of course but deep pockets would be needed.
DJPeters
I've heard it the other way round, the bluebirds need a fair bit of work as they've had water leaking into them causing a bit of mould and general interior damage, along with being outside unloved for 20 years. The Red Hens on the other hand are in the condition the SGR left them in, inside korumburra shed.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Frivolous? Yes, but in court he should be called vexatious.
Aaron
Frivolous is a statement on the claim, vexatious is a statement on the person.

I don't know of his history with the courts so can't guess at the chance of success if there was an application for a vexatious litigant order against him.

It took over 30 lawsuits before Andrew Garrett was chucked out of the courts.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

Gebers train is rapidly turning into a pile of scrap metal and he may have the train and a railway station but what he needs is the railway track to run on. So all he has to do is purchase it from G&W or Onerail I think it is now bring it to a safe standard for running and maintain the track at his expense and he can run his train. But to be polite if he cannot maintain his train properly then how will he maintain the track.

The Wine train now is virtually a wreck almost all the window rubber seals are shot this lets water into the cars also the roofs leak as well and again water can get into the cars. Last time it was opened up to move it, it was noted that mould and mildew is now firmly entrenched inside the cars. Also in places on the outside of the cars things are coming adrift in one place a large section of the fluting on one car is just holding on by a wing and a prayer. To be honest the cars would need to be stripped to the frames and fully rebuilt just to get it accredited let alone run or be towed. The longer it sits in the open then the worse it will get.

Also one end of the 100 trailer car I think it is sits lower by a good 250mm or more and that could mean something has collapsed or broken and needs fixing, I was told it could be on the bogie that this has happened though. The problem is there whatever it is.

So really I do not understand why he spent that $100,000 trying to save 120 metres of railway line when he could have spent that money on fixing up his train.

Also the three cars have been requested to be removed from the National Railway Museum ASAP but so far not a thing has been done they are still there but if they are not removed after a legal determined time one wonders what will happen to them, they might just get scrapped where they stand as that might well be the outcome of it.  I am not saying it will but there are not many options left for Mr Geber and his train.

The cars will need to be trucked out from the NRM though as I don't think in their present state they would be allowed to be towed elsewhere and then one has to ask just where can they go to as well. Trucking them will require them to be lifted up so not only will three trucks be needed or one truck making three trips but also two cranes to lift them and cranes most likely will be needed at both ends to load and unload them. This is something that anyone that would like to buy them from Mr Geber has to understand if you purchase the cars then they have to be removed from the NRM at the buyers expense.

The cost to remove them to be honest is probably more than the cars are now worth.
I had heard that Geber had acquired the ex SGR Red Hens destined to go to Mornington from a comrade of mine. Would this be true or just Gunzel idealism?
I don't know for sure but I think it could be just some gunzel idealism more than anything. Other than for historic type trips Red Hens might be a step downward in comfort from his errrrr Bluebirds. And to upgrade them might be costly. it could be done of course but deep pockets would be needed.
I've heard it the other way round, the bluebirds need a fair bit of work as they've had water leaking into them causing a bit of mould and general interior damage, along with being outside unloved for 20 years. The Red Hens on the other hand are in the condition the SGR left them in, inside korumburra shed.
Dangersdan707
That might be true but he has to truck them out to someplace but where and that will not come cheap, he is rich but if he wont spend money on the Wine Train upkeep what hope would a couple of Red Hens have probably the same fate as his Wine train. It is him that is stopping the Wine Train actually as he want's the current rail acts and laws to pertain to everyone except him and his train and the state govt here have said no to him, you run to current laws or you do not run at all, which is were he is at the moment.

So really he has no one to blame but himself for it, others have got things up and running within the current set up so why cannot he do it as well. If he had done all the paper work and got all the accreditations etc that were needed and the train was in a sound state to actually run he could have been running them the same week that he bought them, but no he want's to bypass all that.
  brianph Locomotive Driver

Location: Bethany
So really he has no one to blame but himself for it, others have got things up and running within the current set up so why cannot he do it as well. If he had done all the paper work and got all the accreditations etc that were needed and the train was in a sound state to actually run he could have been running them the same week that he bought them, but no he want's to bypass all that.
D J Peters


I think you might find that the reason Geber didn't start running straight away was because G&W refused to allow any passenger traffic on the line - deeming it unsafe. He tried several times around 2005/6.

Adelaide Metro used to run a train of 3XXX class to the Barossa for the annual 'A Day on the Green' at Peter Lehmann's.  They were refused permission by G&W ("We don't want passengers on our line.") at the last moment one year and had to cancel and run buses instead. Can't remember which year - but somewhere around 2004/6.

Brian
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Geber has not bought the Red Hens - another un-associated individual has.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


I think you might find that the reason Geber didn't start running straight away was because G&W refused to allow any passenger traffic on the line - deeming it unsafe. He tried several times around 2005/6.

Adelaide Metro used to run a train of 3XXX class to the Barossa for the annual 'A Day on the Green' at Peter Lehmann's.  They were refused permission by G&W ("We don't want passengers on our line.") at the last moment one year and had to cancel and run buses instead. Can't remember which year - but somewhere around 2004/6.

Brian
brianph
Unfortunately seems to be the mainstay of other Australian based private rail freight operators. Even today Tasrail, how long has it been back in the hands of the govt and yet still no heritage trains have run.

I wonder if in the litigious US, the private freight rail operators are so anti HR?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville


I think you might find that the reason Geber didn't start running straight away was because G&W refused to allow any passenger traffic on the line - deeming it unsafe. He tried several times around 2005/6.

Adelaide Metro used to run a train of 3XXX class to the Barossa for the annual 'A Day on the Green' at Peter Lehmann's.  They were refused permission by G&W ("We don't want passengers on our line.") at the last moment one year and had to cancel and run buses instead. Can't remember which year - but somewhere around 2004/6.

Brian
Unfortunately seems to be the mainstay of other Australian based private rail freight operators. Even today Tasrail, how long has it been back in the hands of the govt and yet still no heritage trains have run.

I wonder if in the litigious US, the private freight rail operators are so anti HR?
RTT_Rules
Some are, some aren't. Apart from the Big Boy there ain't been a lot recently. Some of the smaller shortlines have associated HR operations I don't see too many heritage, but most are diesel.

How many mainline accredited locos are there in Tasmania?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


I think you might find that the reason Geber didn't start running straight away was because G&W refused to allow any passenger traffic on the line - deeming it unsafe. He tried several times around 2005/6.

Adelaide Metro used to run a train of 3XXX class to the Barossa for the annual 'A Day on the Green' at Peter Lehmann's.  They were refused permission by G&W ("We don't want passengers on our line.") at the last moment one year and had to cancel and run buses instead. Can't remember which year - but somewhere around 2004/6.

Brian
Unfortunately seems to be the mainstay of other Australian based private rail freight operators. Even today Tasrail, how long has it been back in the hands of the govt and yet still no heritage trains have run.

I wonder if in the litigious US, the private freight rail operators are so anti HR?
Some are, some aren't. Apart from the Big Boy there ain't been a lot recently. Some of the smaller shortlines have associated HR operations I don't see too many heritage, but most are diesel.

How many mainline accredited locos are there in Tasmania?
bingley hall
Diesel is certainly king!

For Tassie, today, no idea. others probably do but they used to have a few between the three groups. Used to be around 2 x X and 2 x Y class diesels plus 3 or so steamers, mostly M and MA class with C class used at Don for its own line work and at one points Dubs.

Problem now is that its been along time between drinks so whats still in service?

TTMS in Hobart is connected to a 20 km long branch line that is basically closed following relocation of Hobart inter-modal yard to Briton. So with only a few hundred metres of track would they maintain locos in mainline operating condition or rather static but preserved.

Derwent Valley had an X and Y DEL plus a H class steamer in longterm rebuild, I think its ready to go, but no track access approvals as the line they want to lease or lease is under control of the state, previously PN despite not being used by either since early 90's.

Don Valley, they have their 3km of track, but connection with mainline is I think currently disconnected following derailment in PN days. Again waiting on rack access approvals.

I left Tassie in 1998 and unknowingly caught some of the last mainline tours on a number of lines at that point.

You have to give credit to alot of the people who keep turning up to the sheds working on repairing/rebuilding/upgrading the fleet with no end in sight for mainline access.

Back to Baroosa, I stated my position previously on what should happen there and HR is not a key part of what I believe should be the rail future.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out


I think you might find that the reason Geber didn't start running straight away was because G&W refused to allow any passenger traffic on the line - deeming it unsafe. He tried several times around 2005/6.

Adelaide Metro used to run a train of 3XXX class to the Barossa for the annual 'A Day on the Green' at Peter Lehmann's.  They were refused permission by G&W ("We don't want passengers on our line.") at the last moment one year and had to cancel and run buses instead. Can't remember which year - but somewhere around 2004/6.

Brian
Unfortunately seems to be the mainstay of other Australian based private rail freight operators. Even today Tasrail, how long has it been back in the hands of the govt and yet still no heritage trains have run.

I wonder if in the litigious US, the private freight rail operators are so anti HR?
Some are, some aren't. Apart from the Big Boy there ain't been a lot recently. Some of the smaller shortlines have associated HR operations I don't see too many heritage, but most are diesel.

How many mainline accredited locos are there in Tasmania?
bingley hall
CSX up until H. Harrison left was anti Heritage Rail
UP own their Steam Locos
NS decided it cant be bothered right now after Wick Moorman stepped down
Recent changes with AMTRAK they sort of dont want to/cant run tours with steamers.

ATSF 3751/SP4449/MILW 261 etc are going through 10 year FRA inspections
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Stephen Marshall was on radio earlier this week telling the masses how South Australia was open for business and tourism and how he expected a renewed influx of people wanting to shift or migrate to Adelaide and South Australia post this covid19 business.

Perhaps he believes this tourism project is not work the effort?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Stephen Marshall was on radio earlier this week telling the masses how South Australia was open for business and tourism and how he expected a renewed influx of people wanting to shift or migrate to Adelaide and South Australia post this covid19 business.

Perhaps he believes this tourism project is not work the effort?
NSWGR8022
Perhaps you could bring back the Glenn Innes Mail.

If you could do that in NSW then you have earned the right to criticise SA for not bringing back rail to the Barossa.

You might guess that I find people from interstate telling us what we ought to do with our derelict rail lines just a bit tedious.

We miss those trains too. From time to time I drive beside the all but abandoned line between Burra and Farrell Flat and in my minds eye I am pacing a 520 steamer dashing along with the Broken Hill Express or perhaps just a Blue Bird DMU. Sadly times have changed and the travel requirements of the region have changed.

As a question. How much input do railways in NSW have into tourism? What percentage of visitors arrive at their destination by rail?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Perhaps he believes this tourism project is not work the effort?
NSWGR8022
The Kroemer's Crossing roundabout is going ahead and is worth the effort.

It's not explicitly a tourism project as the main benefit is that a couple of exporters in the area will get improved freight routes (for which they have contributed a share of the project funding), but of course any improvement to transport in a popular tourist area will have at least a minor benefit to the tourism sector.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

The originator of the phrase "one buttock solution" would like to rename Kroemers Crossing to "Foamers Crossing".
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Perhaps you could bring back the Glenn Innes Mail.

If you could do that in NSW then you have earned the right to criticise SA for not bringing back rail to the Barossa.

You might guess that I find people from interstate telling us what we ought to do with our derelict rail lines just a bit tedious.

We miss those trains too. From time to time I drive beside the all but abandoned line between Burra and Farrell Flat and in my minds eye I am pacing a 520 steamer dashing along with the Broken Hill Express or perhaps just a Blue Bird DMU. Sadly times have changed and the travel requirements of the region have changed.

As a question. How much input do railways in NSW have into tourism? What percentage of visitors arrive at their destination by rail?
steam4ian
Fair comment but compare apples with apples.

Barossa is 75km from Adelaide, pop 1.3m with what ever tourists to the valley I previously indicated.

Glenn Innes is 1/4 the size in population and 600km from Sydney.

Within 75km of Sydney we have 4 commuter lines, 3 of 4 sparked. If you include the 63km long Richmond line, that 4 out of 5 sparked.

The Hunter Valley has a DMU commuter line, although it does operate on a line supported by coal and grain. The Vinyards are also 10km south of the line, from memory the Barossa vinyards surround the line to some degree. But to show I learn something every day, check Hunter Wine train, who knew this existed?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Perhaps you could bring back the Glenn Innes Mail.


As a question. How much input do railways in NSW have into tourism? What percentage of visitors arrive at their destination by rail?
Fair comment but compare apples with apples.

Barossa is 75km from Adelaide, pop 1.3m with what ever tourists to the valley I previously indicated.

Glenn Innes is 1/4 the size in population and 600km from Sydney.

Within 75km of Sydney we have 4 commuter lines, 3 of 4 sparked. If you include the 63km long Richmond line, that 4 out of 5 sparked.

The Hunter Valley has a DMU commuter line, although it does operate on a line supported by coal and grain. The Vinyards are also 10km south of the line, from memory the Barossa vinyards surround the line to some degree. But to show I learn something every day, check Hunter Wine train, who knew this existed?
RTT_Rules
Thank you for the advice regarding the Hunter Wine Train. In the 60s the NSWGR promoted a number of day trips by rail. My then girlfriend and I took a trip to Katoomba by that means and were taken around the sites (or is that sights) by mini-bus.

As for the Glenn Innes mail, that was my favourite NSWGR train, it allowed me to travel to/from Newcastle to spend weekends in Sydney with my girlfriend, now my wife of 49 years.

Regarding apples. I note that the Hunter Wine Train appears to be part of a regular service and observe that the population served by the rail is, as a minimum 10 times that of the Barossa. I also note that it runs on tracks used by many other services and which are heavily subsidised by coal*. Unfortunately the Barossa line is now close to derelict with no high revenue traffic to defray the costs.

* Regarding coal traffic. When travelling in NSW in my student days (see Glenn Innes Mail) I noted how highly manned the system was compared to SA with many practices I then considered antiquated and labour intensive. I did observe the huge amounts of coal and mineral traffic and that agricultural loadings traveled large distances to the main ports, the revenues for all of which underwrote the system's operations.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thank you for the advice regarding the Hunter Wine Train. In the 60s the NSWGR promoted a number of day trips by rail. My then girlfriend and I took a trip to Katoomba by that means and were taken around the sites (or is that sights) by mini-bus.

As for the Glenn Innes mail, that was my favourite NSWGR train, it allowed me to travel to/from Newcastle to spend weekends in Sydney with my girlfriend, now my wife of 49 years.

Regarding apples. I note that the Hunter Wine Train appears to be part of a regular service and observe that the population served by the rail is, as a minimum 10 times that of the Barossa. I also note that it runs on tracks used by many other services and which are heavily subsidised by coal*. Unfortunately the Barossa line is now close to derelict with no high revenue traffic to defray the costs.

* Regarding coal traffic. When travelling in NSW in my student days (see Glenn Innes Mail) I noted how highly manned the system was compared to SA with many practices I then considered antiquated and labour intensive. I did observe the huge amounts of coal and mineral traffic and that agricultural loadings traveled large distances to the main ports, the revenues for all of which underwrote the system's operations.
steam4ian
Hi
Yes, it would appear they are promoting seats on the NW Explorer (DMU) as a wine train of such to Singelton.

Looking at the Hunter commuter service numbers to Singelton there is also reverse commute flow of people to Singelton, why I don't know.

The more comparable line for Barossa with Sydney is the Richmond Line. Scofields, which was the previous end of dual track (now Vineyard) and most of suburbia is almost the same route km from Sydney as Gawler.

Its single sparked track from Vineyard to Richmond which is 9 km shorter than Tanundra to city is surrounded by alot of green. The population count of these suburbs is also more reflective Barossa than many would think, yet supports a frequent rail service which was sparked as late as early 90's. I wouldn't however promote sparking the Barossa Line.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thank you for the advice regarding the Hunter Wine Train. In the 60s the NSWGR promoted a number of day trips by rail. My then girlfriend and I took a trip to Katoomba by that means and were taken around the sites (or is that sights) by mini-bus.

As for the Glenn Innes mail, that was my favourite NSWGR train, it allowed me to travel to/from Newcastle to spend weekends in Sydney with my girlfriend, now my wife of 49 years.

Regarding apples. I note that the Hunter Wine Train appears to be part of a regular service and observe that the population served by the rail is, as a minimum 10 times that of the Barossa. I also note that it runs on tracks used by many other services and which are heavily subsidised by coal*. Unfortunately the Barossa line is now close to derelict with no high revenue traffic to defray the costs.

* Regarding coal traffic. When travelling in NSW in my student days (see Glenn Innes Mail) I noted how highly manned the system was compared to SA with many practices I then considered antiquated and labour intensive. I did observe the huge amounts of coal and mineral traffic and that agricultural loadings traveled large distances to the main ports, the revenues for all of which underwrote the system's operations.
Hi
Yes, it would appear they are promoting seats on the NW Explorer (DMU) as a wine train of such to Singelton.

Looking at the Hunter commuter service numbers to Singelton there is also reverse commute flow of people to Singelton, why I don't know.

The more comparable line for Barossa with Sydney is the Richmond Line. Scofields, which was the previous end of dual track (now Vineyard) and most of suburbia is almost the same route km from Sydney as Gawler.

Its single sparked track from Vineyard to Richmond which is 9 km shorter than Tanundra to city is surrounded by alot of green. The population count of these suburbs is also more reflective Barossa than many would think, yet supports a frequent rail service which was sparked as late as early 90's. I wouldn't however promote sparking the Barossa Line.
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
Singleton is a sizeable town, with a wide range of retail and service enterprises that support local mining, agribusiness (wine and equine) and the defence base. The local council is also based there. Not surprising that lots of people commute in - would be interesting to see patronage figures for the hunter train services - frequency drops off Sharply after Maitland (Telarah).

Worth a visit, with or without the wineries.

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