Lines which should never have closed (but let's just be a little realistic)

 
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'"If your instructions can be understood by my mother, they're OK. If not, go and rewrite them and remember you're instructing people outside your own field of expertise."'
Sums it up brilliantly (even though I am neither your mother or your father).

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  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
"If your instructions can be understood by my mother, they're OK. If not, go and rewrite them and remember you're instructing people outside your own field of expertise."
Valvegear
Hmm not sure I totally agree with this.  

Yes keep it simple, but in a former life, if I was to try and write instructions to my specialists (outside my core field) that my mother could understand id be writing a small book of background content that was patronising to them...

There is room for complexity in this world and we should ensure we dont miss out on the big prizes by oversimplifying things at the foundational levels.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Just to confirm in my old mind! Am I correct in understanding that APFT is a 'former/archaic' code for Forrest which is now known as FOS / YFRT?
I was offered a flight from Forrest to Adelaide 20 odd years ago, (no doubt in a light plane of some sort), but declined preferring to travel on the much slower train.
Regards
YM
YM-Mundrabilla
Forrest data https://ourairports.com/airports/YFRT/

Shows as APFT on this website http://aviation.bmkg.go.id/web/station.php?c=AU&pn=0&lang=en

Geoff Goodall has some history of planes and trains at Forrest and the airfield that served the interstate air link with dignity
http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/forrest-airport/forrestairport.html
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
"If your instructions can be understood by my mother, they're OK. If not, go and rewrite them and remember you're instructing people outside your own field of expertise."
Hmm not sure I totally agree with this.  

Yes keep it simple, but in a former life, if I was to try and write instructions to my specialists (outside my core field) that my mother could understand id be writing a small book of background content that was patronising to them...

There is room for complexity in this world and we should ensure we dont miss out on the big prizes by oversimplifying things at the foundational levels.
james.au
We are talking two different things here.
  1. One the one hand (yours) you are writing for 'specialists' who will understand precisely what you are saying. Obviously there is a need for this type of communication.
  2. On the other hand (mine on RP) our writings are intended to be informative to a community which is diverse in both experience and geographical location which often comes with local knowledge/jargon/interpretation.
Sadly, there will always be some who write, accidentally, or by design, to show that 'I know something and you don't'.

I am not talking about over or under simplification here I am simply advocating plain, intelligible, informative English where one does not need to Google every other word/acronym.
  Bulbous Assistant Commissioner

Thanks for the WA perspective bulbous.

Whats the view on NG vs SG in the areas with NG lines?  Does CBH/Watco have a preference?
james.au


Watco/CBH have a good sized fleet of 16/19 tonne axle load narrow gauge locos and wagons, so the emphasis focusses more on the turnaround times from bin to port, and the loading speeds of the bins themselves.

I believe that if CBH/Watco had to fund the line reconstructions themselves, they would likely continue with NG, but long term planning through the Department of Transport is for all of the narrow gauge lines north of the eastern main line to Kalgoorlie to be standardised, with the Miling line to go to 24 tonne axle loading (the remainder to be 19/21 tonne). The Geraldton line was to be dual gauged for part, and standardised the rest, dual gauge to go to Brookton on the Albany line, with the rest to be reconstructed accordingly.

Cheers,

Matt.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Hmm not sure I totally agree with this.  

Yes keep it simple, but in a former life, if I was to try and write instructions to my specialists (outside my core field) that my mother could understand id be writing a small book of background content that was patronising to them...
james.au
I am not, and never was talking about correspondence to specialists. My comments (and those which I quoted from my son) were directed towards instructions for the lay person using equipment; in this case, computers. I thought you may have figured that out.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Just to confirm in my old mind! Am I correct in understanding that APFT is a 'former/archaic' code for Forrest which is now known as FOS / YFRT?
I was offered a flight from Forrest to Adelaide 20 odd years ago, (no doubt in a light plane of some sort), but declined preferring to travel on the much slower train.
Regards
YM
Forrest data https://ourairports.com/airports/YFRT/

Shows as APFT on this website http://aviation.bmkg.go.id/web/station.php?c=AU&pn=0&lang=en

Geoff Goodall has some history of planes and trains at Forrest and the airfield that served the interstate air link with dignity
http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/forrest-airport/forrestairport.html
petan
Petan.
Very interesting and educational. I have learned a few new things today from this thread and the three links due to your efforts. Thanks.

Notable (to me anyway) is that Forrest has two ICAO codes and three separate entries.

Off thread, I know, but educational nevertheless.

Pity that no one seems to have photos of the Ansett DC9 that Commonwealth Railways put into Forrest to rescue a train load of passengers many years ago.
  CPH8 Junior Train Controller

Yes APFT was the location indicator when there was a manned Flight Service Unit there. The acronyms were made up from: A for Australia; P for Perth ie Western Australia; and FT for Forrest. In later years it was a refuelling stop for the AerMacchi RAAF training aircraft which didn't have the endurance to fly non-stop Adelaide - Perth particularly if there were headwinds.
The Forrest Flight Information Zone was only a 10 nautical mile radius location, within the Kalgoorlie (APKG) Flight Information Area. All these places were shut down in the late 1980's/early 1990's by Mr. Smith. I finished up at Dubbo (ASDU) in November 1991, six months before it shut down. Flight Service was the predecessor to Air Traffic Control, introduced as Aeradio in 1938 after the airliner crash in the Snowy Mountains because the pilot didn't have radio to get an updated weather forecast. Ah the good old days of morse code!
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Yes APFT was the location indicator when there was a manned Flight Service Unit there. The acronyms were made up from: A for Australia; P for Perth ie Western Australia; and FT for Forrest. In later years it was a refuelling stop for the AerMacchi RAAF training aircraft which didn't have the endurance to fly non-stop Adelaide - Perth particularly if there were headwinds.
The Forrest Flight Information Zone was only a 10 nautical mile radius location, within the Kalgoorlie (APKG) Flight Information Area. All these places were shut down in the late 1980's/early 1990's by Mr. Smith. I finished up at Dubbo (ASDU) in November 1991, six months before it shut down. Flight Service was the predecessor to Air Traffic Control, introduced as Aeradio in 1938 after the airliner crash in the Snowy Mountains because the pilot didn't have radio to get an updated weather forecast. Ah the good old days of morse code!
CPH8
Thanks CPH8. Another thing that I have learned today! Smile
The VR was still using (just) Morse in the 1960s I believe.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks for the WA perspective bulbous.

Whats the view on NG vs SG in the areas with NG lines?  Does CBH/Watco have a preference?


Watco/CBH have a good sized fleet of 16/19 tonne axle load narrow gauge locos and wagons, so the emphasis focusses more on the turnaround times from bin to port, and the loading speeds of the bins themselves.

I believe that if CBH/Watco had to fund the line reconstructions themselves, they would likely continue with NG, but long term planning through the Department of Transport is for all of the narrow gauge lines north of the eastern main line to Kalgoorlie to be standardised, with the Miling line to go to 24 tonne axle loading (the remainder to be 19/21 tonne). The Geraldton line was to be dual gauged for part, and standardised the rest, dual gauge to go to Brookton on the Albany line, with the rest to be reconstructed accordingly.

Cheers,

Matt.
Bulbous
Interesting detail - i didnt know about these plans. Are there any reports etc out there that go into the detail some more?  SG of all the northern branches looks like a substantial conversion job.  Bigger than Murray Basin perhaps...

The CBH fleet, how convertible is it?  Theyre the same locos on SG and NG so it should be a case of new bogies for the most part no?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Thanks for the WA perspective bulbous.

Whats the view on NG vs SG in the areas with NG lines?  Does CBH/Watco have a preference?


Watco/CBH have a good sized fleet of 16/19 tonne axle load narrow gauge locos and wagons, so the emphasis focusses more on the turnaround times from bin to port, and the loading speeds of the bins themselves.

I believe that if CBH/Watco had to fund the line reconstructions themselves, they would likely continue with NG, but long term planning through the Department of Transport is for all of the narrow gauge lines north of the eastern main line to Kalgoorlie to be standardised, with the Miling line to go to 24 tonne axle loading (the remainder to be 19/21 tonne). The Geraldton line was to be dual gauged for part, and standardised the rest, dual gauge to go to Brookton on the Albany line, with the rest to be reconstructed accordingly.

Cheers,

Matt.
Interesting detail - i didnt know about these plans. Are there any reports etc out there that go into the detail some more?  SG of all the northern branches looks like a substantial conversion job.  Bigger than Murray Basin perhaps...

The CBH fleet, how convertible is it?  Theyre the same locos on SG and NG so it should be a case of new bogies for the most part no?
james.au
Does the whole loco fleet have SG bogie frames?
  Bulbous Assistant Commissioner

Interesting detail - i didnt know about these plans. Are there any reports etc out there that go into the detail some more?  SG of all the northern branches looks like a substantial conversion job.  Bigger than Murray Basin perhaps...

The CBH fleet, how convertible is it?  Theyre the same locos on SG and NG so it should be a case of new bogies for the most part no?
james.au


The plan is here:
Revitalising Agricultural Region Freight Strategy

I believe the 19 tonne NG locos are also MP33C units on narrow gauge bogies (MP33CN), but the 16 tonnes NG locos are MP27CN units.

Cheers,

Matt.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

..................................................................

Bombala (tourist train to snowfields, and a new loop along far south coast e.g. Merimbula northwards to the Illawarra).

............................................................................
ANR

Costed at $6 billion. Not surprising, given the terrain and all the horseshoe bends.
https://www.begadistrictnews.com.au/story/6954606/end-of-the-line-canberra-to-eden-railway-feasibility-study-finds-project-is-not-viable/
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
The line to Hay would have opened up possibilities for a much more direct route to Adelaide now that Pinnaroo and Murray Basin are SG. It’s not that far to join them up, over fairly mild terrain.

Suspect potential traffic volumes, though.
  hbedriver Assistant Commissioner

The line from Bumbunga to Lochiel is surely a prime candidate for reopening. Fine scenery en route, and such an under-rated attraction at the destination. Would make an ideal tourist railway; bet the international travelers have never seen anything like it
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
The line from Bumbunga to Lochiel is surely a prime candidate for reopening. Fine scenery en route, and such an under-rated attraction at the destination. Would make an ideal tourist railway; bet the international travelers have never seen anything like it
hbedriver
Less than 8km? If there's a demand, surely a bus can handle it?
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
In NSW what about Murwillumbah, Newcastle, Ropes Creek and Maybe Cooma, Camden, Castle Hill, Sandown and Kurrajong? Many of the latter lines are in areas that have grown since their closure.

In Queensland the Southport and Tweed Heads railways.

In Victoria what about the Victorian Railways tramways?

In South Australia what about the lines to the Barossa Valley, Peterborough, Semaphore and the second Glenelg line,?
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
In NSW what about Murwillumbah, Newcastle, Ropes Creek and Maybe Cooma, Camden, Castle Hill, Sandown and Kurrajong? Many of the latter lines are in areas that have grown since their closure.
In Queensland the Southport and Tweed Heads railways.
In Victoria what about the Victorian Railways tramways?
In South Australia what about the lines to the Barossa Valley, Peterborough, Semaphore and the second Glenelg line,?
GeoffreyHansen
I explained why the Southport / Tweed Heads ones are not an obvious ones very early in this thread and have done so for years on Railpage. I have posted many times in other Railpage threads also for years about the Northern Rivers population now living a distance from the 1890s built Murwillumbah rail route.

Lismore floods mean the main Lismore population areas are up on the Goonellabah ridge suburbs, while the train route is down on the flood prone flats. People power abandoned the flooded rail route decades ago.

The people in the general population who falsely claim the present Gold Coast line is a rebuild of the steam era line need to realise maps have been invented, then they need to use maps to compare the present route with the steam ere route south of present day Yatala industrial areas.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Shelbourne > Laanecoorie > Arnold's Bridge. Oh hang on.......
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Well I've been gunna and gunna and haven't so here goes, Dynamic Foamer activated.......

Firstly I agree with a couple already mentioned, james with the Toc to Narrandera and Gman with the Cobram, Dookie lines.

Now, NSW; Main North Line from Armidale to Wallangarra, Rankin Springs line and a soft spot for the Burcher & Rand branches. My roughy for the NSW list is the line South from Boree Creek through Urana to Oaklands.  

Now the Vic side of thing's, being a Western District lad, the real killer was the closure of the Horsham to Hamilton line and having lived in the Wimmera for a good deal of time, the line from Nati East to Carpolac as well as Lubeck to Bolangum.

I reckon it's worth mentioning the Heywood to Mt Gambier also, which had a solid stream of traffic until the demon standard gauge isolated it.

BigShunter.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
Now, NSW; Main North Line from Armidale to Wallangarra,
BigShunter
Perhaps it could have been retained as far as Tenterfield, but unlikely that it could ever be justified to Wallangarra. That is unless the SG was extended to Toowoomba or perhaps Brisbane via a more direct route. Yep, real pie in the sky stuff there!
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
I note some suggestions that restored rail lines will take tourists to high volume tourist attractions. That would probably mean a tour group bus from the tour group motel to the railway station, then a bus at the other end to the venue. Then the same to get back. Lots of vehicle transfers involved in that! But a smart tourist operator would charter a bus from the group motel, with the tourists' luggage, and visit a tourist venue in the morning with morning tea arranged, then another for lunch than another venue for the afternoon tea, then on to a different motel for the night or back home. Along the way, the coach might stop off at a lookout to see the same vista that the rail passengers would see, provided the rail passengers were sitting on that side of the carriage.

Non tour group people would just use a car with their luggage in the boot and go when they wanted to.

Those rail lines closed because people like your grandparents purchased cars or used trucks in their business. They used their cars and trucks to go when and where they wanted to without waiting for a train timetable.

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