The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
We had a large (multi-million dollar) tidal power plant here off the coast in the St Vincent Gulf around Noarlunga - can't find anything about it on the web at the moment but from memory it was destroyed by a storm and the debris is still out there, too expensive to remove it apparently.
Has any tidal power plant not ended as a pile of scrap on a beach somewhere?
apw5910
So are the first generation of cars, rockets and planes, yet here we are today.

Sponsored advertisement

  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
90% of our power here in SA tonight coming from fossil fuels and 9% from wind - no energy being imported or exported presently but 1,432 MW presently being demanded from gas 'peaking'.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
90% of our power here in SA tonight coming from fossil fuels and 9% from wind - no energy being imported or exported presently but 1,432 MW presently being demanded from gas 'peaking'.
don_dunstan
Issues in Vic, coal output reduced, Basslink is flat out.

SA also has an issue as bass CCGT generation reduced during this period to around 180 - 200 MW, later in the night it returns toaround 400 MW.

Pelican Point has 2 x 160 MW Gas Turbines and a 165 MW Steam turbine using waste heat from front two. Total 485 MW
Osborne  is 120 MW gas turbine and 60 MW steam turbine, total 180 MW.

Looking at the overall data I'm guessing Pelican Point was off and Osborne was running at 100% to around 4:30pm and something happened in Vic or something else and Pelican Point was not brought on line in time. I'll check the actual turbine data later.

There was no export or import briefly, SA was exporting into Vic, then as situation in Vic improved they started to export into SA.

Peaking gas/diesel like peaking hydro, doing its job, providing short term supply.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
We're having another 'wind drought' here in SA this morning - total demand is 724 MW and wind can only provide 21 MW of that. The gas turbines and interstate HV lines are working hard today...
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
We're having another 'wind drought' here in SA this morning - total demand is 724 MW and wind can only provide 21 MW of that. The gas turbines and interstate HV lines are working hard today...
don_dunstan
3 days wind less than 8MW, but that's most during the day.

For two days one of the base load CCGT was off line, thus using ore peaking capacity, but that's what's supposed to happen, where they hard at work, no, plenty of spare capacity. Import from Vic as its cheaper and always has been.

Of interest
Battery power has supplied 1% of total power over last 3 days, reaching 5% in peak. Not bad for a handful of small grid batteries that was historically written off as pointless.

If SA doubled its solar, over the last 3 days 8h would be 100% solar, 6h around 50%.

the new batteries being planned will lift supply in peak to over 10% of demand.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
We're having another 'wind drought' here in SA this morning - total demand is 724 MW and wind can only provide 21 MW of that. The gas turbines and interstate HV lines are working hard today...
3 days wind less than 8MW, but that's most during the day.

For two days one of the base load CCGT was off line, thus using ore peaking capacity, but that's what's supposed to happen, where they hard at work, no, plenty of spare capacity. Import from Vic as its cheaper and always has been.

Of interest
Battery power has supplied 1% of total power over last 3 days, reaching 5% in peak. Not bad for a handful of small grid batteries that was historically written off as pointless.

If SA doubled its solar, over the last 3 days 8h would be 100% solar, 6h around 50%.

the new batteries being planned will lift supply in peak to over 10% of demand.
RTT_Rules
How long did the Tesla battery supply five percent of South Australia's energy needs for?

Ten percent - again, for how long? I've heard its for less than half an hour. In a prolonged 'wind drought' they won't make a fig of difference - its back to gas, diesel or imported brown coal.

Also you didn't answer my question a while back about Saudi solar power plants - do they supply power @ 4 cents kWH all day and all night?

No, of course they don't.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
How long did the Tesla battery supply five percent of South Australia's energy needs for?

Ten percent - again, for how long? I've heard its for less than half an hour. In a prolonged 'wind drought' they won't make a fig of difference - its back to gas, diesel or imported brown coal.

Also you didn't answer my question a while back about Saudi solar power plants - do they supply power @ 4 cents kWH all day and all night?

No, of course they don't.
don_dunstan
The main battery demand was 2.5 h peaking at 93 MW for 30min.

Slightly smaller version of the same thing from 6am to 830 am

You heard wrong.

The battery's are obviously bigger now and will continue to grow. Just like coal, gas and diesel once did.

I answered, you choose not to read and its called common sense. The power is supplied during the day when demand in the middle east is at its highest and when KSA is normally using peaking gas turbines burning oil.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The main battery demand was 2.5 h peaking at 93 MW for 30min.

Slightly smaller version of the same thing from 6am to 830 am

You heard wrong.

The battery's are obviously bigger now and will continue to grow. Just like coal, gas and diesel once did.
RTT_Rules
Again, not a significant or meaningful contribution to our power grid. I think resident experts like arctic will tell you that the best use for batteries is to prevent problems when there's unexpected outages, spikes etc. But they're really not intended to ever be a form of serious supply in themselves - and they probably never will be. As the head of AGL said last year, they'll never be operating in this country in a significantly scaled up form, they're just too expensive.
I answered, you choose not to read and its called common sense. The power is supplied during the day when demand in the middle east is at its highest and when KSA is normally using peaking gas turbines burning oil.
RTT_Rules
So no four cent electricity at midnight then? I thought these things were supposed to be the ultimate competition to fossil fuels - now you're telling me they don't run when the sun isn't out?

What kind of scam is that!
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Solar and wind is going to see a drop in wholesale power prices shortly. Good.

Bad news is that this morning coal, gas, and to a lesser extent Hydro was doing all the heavy lifting to supply electricity. The sun is weak and the wind isn't blowing atm.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The main battery demand was 2.5 h peaking at 93 MW for 30min.

Slightly smaller version of the same thing from 6am to 830 am

You heard wrong.

The battery's are obviously bigger now and will continue to grow. Just like coal, gas and diesel once did.
Again, not a significant or meaningful contribution to our power grid. I think resident experts like arctic will tell you that the best use for batteries is to prevent problems when there's unexpected outages, spikes etc. But they're really not intended to ever be a form of serious supply in themselves - and they probably never will be. As the head of AGL said last year, they'll never be operating in this country in a significantly scaled up form, they're just too expensive.
I answered, you choose not to read and its called common sense. The power is supplied during the day when demand in the middle east is at its highest and when KSA is normally using peaking gas turbines burning oil.
So no four cent electricity at midnight then? I thought these things were supposed to be the ultimate competition to fossil fuels - now you're telling me they don't run when the sun isn't out?

What kind of scam is that!
don_dunstan
ironically battery in SA contributes more power overall than diesel (nearly twice) which you complain about non -stop for god knows why.

Who says a battery is not intended to form part of the supply? Please keep up with the times.

As far as AGL's comment, where are you getting your information from Don?,
" [color=#1d1d1e][size=4][font=proxima-nova, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]AGL has announced several hundred megawatts-worth of a plan to develop 850MW[/font][/size][/color] of storage. Last year, AGL announced plans to build batteries at Loy Yang A power station in Victoria (200MW), Liddell power station (150MW) and Broken Hill (50MW) in NSW and Torrens Island (250 MW) in South Australia."

"AGL today announced that energy storage technology companies, Wärtsilä and Fluence have been secured under non-exclusive framework agreements to supply up to 1000MW of grid-scale battery storage."

“This framework agreement is another example of AGL getting on with the business of energy transition and will enable delivery against our commitment to build 850MW of grid-scale battery storage by FY2024,” Mr Brokhof said.

Battery projects currently in plan or proposal are around 7GW, even if 50% succeed, that's 3.5GW. Enough to run SA for 3h, yes not huge but again this is 2021 and the technology is less than 5 years old. Again we are not providing a solution for 2040 using 2021 technology.


So Don, your BS blinds you again? Or are you just just being normal?

"supposed to be the ultimate competition to fossil fuels", do you need to be educated on how actually solar works?

- Why has KSA bought this solar plant? There's no Green politics in KSA in an absolute Monarchy.

- Why has the UAE bought 4GW of solar power production for which we as a smelter that operates 24/7 have purchased a percentage of this output? Again no Green politics in an absolute Monarchy.

The technical details have been previously explained.

Stop trying to prove yourself an idiot on this topic and either be open eyed, ask questions or just silence.......
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The main battery demand was 2.5 h peaking at 93 MW for 30min.

Slightly smaller version of the same thing from 6am to 830 am

You heard wrong.

The battery's are obviously bigger now and will continue to grow. Just like coal, gas and diesel once did.
Again, not a significant or meaningful contribution to our power grid. I think resident experts like arctic will tell you that the best use for batteries is to prevent problems when there's unexpected outages, spikes etc. But they're really not intended to ever be a form of serious supply in themselves - and they probably never will be. As the head of AGL said last year, they'll never be operating in this country in a significantly scaled up form, they're just too expensive.
I answered, you choose not to read and its called common sense. The power is supplied during the day when demand in the middle east is at its highest and when KSA is normally using peaking gas turbines burning oil.
So no four cent electricity at midnight then? I thought these things were supposed to be the ultimate competition to fossil fuels - now you're telling me they don't run when the sun isn't out?

What kind of scam is that!
ironically battery in SA contributes more power overall than diesel (nearly twice) which you complain about non -stop for god knows why.

Who says a battery is not intended to form part of the supply? Please keep up with the times.

As far as AGL's comment, where are you getting your information from Don?,
" [color=#1d1d1e][size=4][font=proxima-nova, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]AGL has announced several hundred megawatts-worth of a plan to develop 850MW[/font][/size][/color] of storage. Last year, AGL announced plans to build batteries at Loy Yang A power station in Victoria (200MW), Liddell power station (150MW) and Broken Hill (50MW) in NSW and Torrens Island (250 MW) in South Australia."

"AGL today announced that energy storage technology companies, Wärtsilä and Fluence have been secured under non-exclusive framework agreements to supply up to 1000MW of grid-scale battery storage."

“This framework agreement is another example of AGL getting on with the business of energy transition and will enable delivery against our commitment to build 850MW of grid-scale battery storage by FY2024,” Mr Brokhof said.

Battery projects currently in plan or proposal are around 7GW, even if 50% succeed, that's 3.5GW. Enough to run SA for 3h, yes not huge but again this is 2021 and the technology is less than 5 years old. Again we are not providing a solution for 2040 using 2021 technology.


So Don, your BS blinds you again? Or are you just just being normal?

"supposed to be the ultimate competition to fossil fuels", do you need to be educated on how actually solar works?

- Why has KSA bought this solar plant? There's no Green politics in KSA in an absolute Monarchy.

- Why has the UAE bought 4GW of solar power production for which we as a smelter that operates 24/7 have purchased a percentage of this output? Again no Green politics in an absolute Monarchy.

The technical details have been previously explained.

Stop trying to prove yourself an idiot on this topic and either be open eyed, ask questions or just silence.......
RTT_Rules
So AGL have built all these fancy batteries have they? Or are they just waiting for the taxpayer to give them more free money to do it to make it economical.

The Saudis bought a massive solar plant because they're idiots, sucked in my the same fake religion that you have my dear boy. They believe in the same electric fairy-tale that you've been sold - the one in which we have a zero emissions planet for no purpose whatsoever while the developing world keeps building more and more coal fired plants.

Sorry RTT_Rules but there's no evidence that anything you say will ever come true, we've been promised all this rubbish in decades gone past - it never happens. We'll still be burning hydrocarbons - more than ever in another ten years - partly because the Chinese need to keep burning coal so they can sell us all this rubbish to debase our power grids with.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
ironically battery in SA contributes more power overall than diesel (nearly twice) which you complain about non -stop for god knows why.
RTT_Rules


Because I have to keep reminding you (and other people here) that you've been sucked into a cult every bit as evil as the Moonies or Scientology. And instead you keep telling me that I'M the one in the wrong - the irony!

ABC on Monday night devoted an hour to Greta Thurnsberg's year long climate crusade (yes, they really called it that). Incidentally her parents are pushing her and writing her scripts - that much is evident from watching that pap. Anyway the 'scientific evidence of climate change' presented as part of that program was so incredibly weak that it was really quite disappointing - really, insects have changed behavior and you're a hundred percent sure its the Carbon Fairy? These people had no clue what they were talking about, whether or not they were just describing the climate changing because it does all the time (we are still emerging from the last mini ice-age that occurred around 1,200-1,500AD or whether it was actually induced by the evils of carbon dioxide) - they had no actual conclusive evidence. None. Sometimes you could drive a truck through the gaps in the 'research'.

And we're supposed to believe that load of old cobblers? Punish the very poorest Australians with the highest electricity charges in the world on the basis of that false religion? Enrich people like Malcolm Turnbull (well make him even richer than the hundred million he already has in his 'charity' at least)? It's evil - and it's plain wrong. There's not a shred of scientific evidence for anthropogenic climate change and there's no evidence whatsoever that carbon dioxide is heating the upper atmosphere. All you're doing is hobbling the west and allowing the developing world to overtake us and get a strategic advantage with cheap coal fired energy that we can never, ever get back.

You people are like babbling Jehovahs' Witnesses at the doors-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as lunatics by the mainstream.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
So AGL have built all these fancy batteries have they? Or are they just waiting for the taxpayer to give them more free money to do it to make it economical.

The Saudis bought a massive solar plant because they're idiots, sucked in my the same fake religion that you have my dear boy. They believe in the same electric fairy-tale that you've been sold - the one in which we have a zero emissions planet for no purpose whatsoever while the developing world keeps building more and more coal fired plants.

Sorry RTT_Rules but there's no evidence that anything you say will ever come true, we've been promised all this rubbish in decades gone past - it never happens. We'll still be burning hydrocarbons - more than ever in another ten years - partly because the Chinese need to keep burning coal so they can sell us all this rubbish to debase our power grids with.
don_dunstan
Rolling Eyes
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
You people are like babbling Jehovahs' Witnesses at the doors-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as lunatics by the mainstream.
don_dunstan
You are like a babbling Jehovah's Witness at the door-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as a lunatic by the mainstream.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Because I have to keep reminding you (and other people here) that you've been sucked into a cult every bit as evil as the Moonies or Scientology. And instead you keep telling me that I'M the one in the wrong - the irony!

ABC on Monday night devoted an hour to Greta Thurnsberg's year long climate crusade (yes, they really called it that). Incidentally her parents are pushing her and writing her scripts - that much is evident from watching that pap. Anyway the 'scientific evidence of climate change' presented as part of that program was so incredibly weak that it was really quite disappointing - really, insects have changed behavior and you're a hundred percent sure its the Carbon Fairy? These people had no clue what they were talking about, whether or not they were just describing the climate changing because it does all the time (we are still emerging from the last mini ice-age that occurred around 1,200-1,500AD or whether it was actually induced by the evils of carbon dioxide) - they had no actual conclusive evidence. None. Sometimes you could drive a truck through the gaps in the 'research'.

And we're supposed to believe that load of old cobblers? Punish the very poorest Australians with the highest electricity charges in the world on the basis of that false religion? Enrich people like Malcolm Turnbull (well make him even richer than the hundred million he already has in his 'charity' at least)? It's evil - and it's plain wrong. There's not a shred of scientific evidence for anthropogenic climate change and there's no evidence whatsoever that carbon dioxide is heating the upper atmosphere. All you're doing is hobbling the west and allowing the developing world to overtake us and get a strategic advantage with cheap coal fired energy that we can never, ever get back.

You people are like babbling Jehovahs' Witnesses at the doors-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as lunatics by the mainstream.
don_dunstan
Ok, now you are resorting to dragging in all sorts of crap. Greta, CO2 fairy, JW, mini ice age because you finally worked out that the battery isn't as bad as the hype first stated. Yes when it first came out, 100 MWh, pft, an expensive nothing. But clearly the expansion and addition to more batteries is starting to have an impact, like solar in the past and now 5 years later we have GWh of batteries in project. How long before we have TWh being built?


I've express my views in the past on CO2 and yes I don't agree with alot of the hype. But it does get down to one basic question.

Do you think pumping the current amount of CO2 is likely good for the planet?
Forget everything else, simply answer that one simple question Yes or No. Do you think the planet will be equal or better off with the current CO2 emissions.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
You people are like babbling Jehovahs' Witnesses at the doors-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as lunatics by the mainstream.
You are like a babbling Jehovah's Witness at the door-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as a lunatic by the mainstream.
DirtyBallast
Please, if you're going to contribute then don't just parrot like a four year old.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Ok, now you are resorting to dragging in all sorts of crap. Greta, CO2 fairy, JW, mini ice age because you finally worked out that the battery isn't as bad as the hype first stated. Yes when it first came out, 100 MWh, pft, an expensive nothing. But clearly the expansion and addition to more batteries is starting to have an impact, like solar in the past and now 5 years later we have GWh of batteries in project. How long before we have TWh being built?


I've express my views in the past on CO2 and yes I don't agree with alot of the hype. But it does get down to one basic question.

Do you think pumping the current amount of CO2 is likely good for the planet?
Forget everything else, simply answer that one simple question Yes or No. Do you think the planet will be equal or better off with the current CO2 emissions.
RTT_Rules
Regarding the battery, in a severe wind drought like the UK experienced last year batteries will be completely useless because they rely on having something with which to charge them - same goes for pumped hydro. You have to have something with which to cyclically charge these things to begin with and I believe they're going to seriously under-estimate how long these things can persist. The UK was in an extremely lucky position because they were able to get loads of nuclear energy via undersea cables specifically from France - but then because the UK was placing such a huge demand on French nuclear reactors they had to import their own electric supply from Eastern Europe - which is generally coal-fired.

We will have no such luxury in this country once supplies like Liddell. Yallorn and Loy Yang are gone. We'll be completely on our own - there will be blackouts entirely at the discretion of nature. The alternative for Australia is to keep very large supplies on constant standby (probably gas turbines) which is going to add to the overall cost of going 'carbon neutral' quite a bit. That's my main problem with the concept of a 'carbon neutral' society - someone will have to pay very dearly to keep the lights on, generally the poorest Australians who can least afford the middle class welfare of a small solar plant on your roof.

And to answer your question - there's no scientific evidence for carbon dioxide as an agent for (either) cooling or warming... let me repeat, no demonstrable relationship whatsoever.

I can show you in a few simple charts. Now whenever you try and examine the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere what you'll usually be shown is something like the chart below which will only show you the concentration of CO2 in the last few hundred years since the start of the industrial revolution (I guess because that has the scariest looking curve):



What you won't be shown is this chart - which plots the average global surface temperature against the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere since the Precambrian era some 4,500,000,000 years ago:



If anything the relationship between temperatures and higher concentrations of carbon dioxide looks like it's actually the inverse of what we've been told is true - at the end of the Jurassic era there was a sudden rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide at the same time as a (relatively) rapid fall in average temperatures.

What we're not really told about our present situation relative to the past is that carbon dioxide is still almost at the very lowest concentrations that its ever been in earth's history; also that average global temperatures have nearly always been warmer than they are now anyway - and yet life went on.

So while climate alarmists are trying to tell us that the rising levels of carbon dioxide is an immanent threat to life on earth (somehow) the evidence about what actually happened in the past when the same thing occurred shows us that on average nothing happens. For example, at the end of the Jurassic and start of the Cretaceous eras  - the last time there was a major CO2 spike - nothing particularly exciting or dramatic happened although there's evidence of ongoing evolutionary shift as you'd expect. And what mass extinction events do exist they tend to not be linked with carbon dioxide but rather things like the Chicxulub impactor, major volcanic activity etc.

So yeah - even with the relatively tiny amount of carbon dioxide increase that can be attributed to human activity I really don't expect on the balance of probabilities that things are going to change that much. The history of the planet tells us this is the likely outcome.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
So what's your answer?

Do you think pumping the current amount of CO2 is likely good for the planet?
Its fairly simple, Yes or No?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
So what's your answer?

Do you think pumping the current amount of CO2 is likely good for the planet?
Its fairly simple, Yes or No?
RTT_Rules
I'll say yes - increased carbon dioxide results in plant life being healthier and using less water. Its an essential ingredient in photosynthesis after all isn't it.

Not so clear when it comes to the role of the oceans because the theory was always that the oceans would become more acidic with increasing CO2 - but I've also read recently that coral life gets healthier with increased atmospheric carbon dioxide because they turn the dissolved carbon dioxide into calcium carbonate to neutralise the acidity.

Regarding increasing CO2: It's going to happen anyway so there's no sense in thinking that you have any control over the final outcome - you don't. Neither do I. Australia is less than half a percent of global emissions. China will never reign in their carbon emissions - we're dreaming if we think a totalitarian nation like that has any intention of losing a strategic advantage over the rest of the planet.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
You people are like babbling Jehovahs' Witnesses at the doors-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as lunatics by the mainstream.
You are like a babbling Jehovah's Witness at the door-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as a lunatic by the mainstream.
Please, if you're going to contribute then don't just parrot like a four year old.
don_dunstan
I was just trying to communicate at your level!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
You people are like babbling Jehovahs' Witnesses at the doors-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as lunatics by the mainstream.
You are like a babbling Jehovah's Witness at the door-step totally unaware of the fact that you're viewed as a lunatic by the mainstream.
Please, if you're going to contribute then don't just parrot like a four year old.
I was just trying to communicate at your level!
DirtyBallast
Oh well, "no but you are" back at you then...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The Representative from SA will literally be blowing a fuse over this. Coal's apparently dead and we are moving on. Amazing how a few short years makes such a difference. I'm glad...coal is so 20th Century Exclamation

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/fastest-change-in-the-world-coal-s-demise-sparks-call-for-energy-market-reforms-20210429-p57nhc.html

Mike.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

There is no scientific evidence metros are better than Double Deckers.  Some of us here are old enough to remember the PreBradfieldian era, and we ... hang on, I might have the wrong thread.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
The Representative from SA will literally be blowing a fuse over this.
"The Vinelander"
No, he won't. He doesn't have any fuses. "Literally" is one of the most misused words in the lexicon, and means something that actually happens. Mr SA may well be metaphorically blowing a fuse, but he can't literally do it.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The Representative from SA will literally be blowing a fuse over this.
No, he won't. He doesn't have any fuses. "Literally" is one of the most misused words in the lexicon, and means something that actually happens. Mr SA may well be metaphorically blowing a fuse, but he can't literally do it.
Valvegear

Thankyou for that helpful contribution valvegear. Smile

Nevertheless the representative from SA's rants about the wonders of coal fired power stations and the deficiencies of renewables and other advanced means of generating energy, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary because he is obviously so well learned about such matters, in all likelihood by the far right media which will say anything contrary to the mainstream media in a vain effort to keep itself relevant. But I digress.

Posts from that contributor are like listening to Andrew Blot... completely off with the pixies and appealing to the limited intelligence, gullible, loony right wing, conspiracy theory embracing flat Earthists.

Mike.

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