The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Japan has just dropped the building of a coal fired power station.
Well, that is going to save the world!
These idiots really think that's what they're doing when in reality all they're doing is punishing the very poorest Australians with high-priced, unreliable power and forcing yet more jobs off-shore.

How do we compete with 8 cents an hour? The answer: BRING BACK COAL.
don_dunstan

That sums up in its entirety why you are a parrot of the loony right wing media and to put it on the record, the reason I refuse to call you 'Don Dunstan'.

That Premier of SA was a radical leftie in your terms. You would never have voted for him as he was way too visionary and in all likelihood would have embraced renewable energy had it been developed 50 years earlier.

https://www.dunstan.org.au/

Representative from SA...you are a sham Exclamation

M.

Sponsored advertisement

  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Sham...... Don't you mean Shaman
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Interesting read


https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/05/gas-cartel-wins-again/
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Japan has just dropped the building of a coal fired power station.
Well, that is going to save the world!
These idiots really think that's what they're doing when in reality all they're doing is punishing the very poorest Australians with high-priced, unreliable power and forcing yet more jobs off-shore.

How do we compete with 8 cents an hour? The answer: BRING BACK COAL.

That sums up in its entirety why you are a parrot of the loony right wing media and to put it on the record, the reason I refuse to call you 'Don Dunstan'.

That Premier of SA was a radical leftie in your terms. You would never have voted for him as he was way too visionary and in all likelihood would have embraced renewable energy had it been developed 50 years earlier.

https://www.dunstan.org.au/

Representative from SA...you are a sham Exclamation

M.
The Vinelander
You mean "extreme right wing" media. There is also as much stupidity about RE on the right side of the fence as there is on the left. Especially those highlighted by Don  who want coal closed ASAP and oppose gas turbine being used for peaking and backup without any serious alt and those even bigger idiots who oppose SNOWY 2.0 on Env grounds.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Interesting read


https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/05/gas-cartel-wins-again/
wobert
Its close but not entirely correct.

Gas is here to stay for at least next 25 years, people need to get used to the idea as the science tells us so.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ocean ph is dropping, not rising; it's actually been falling since the 19th century.

Remind me again about how the coral reefs are in danger due to ocean acidification from carbon dioxide?

It's purely a theory - nothing has ever been demonstrated in the real world. And even if its true nothing we do in this country will avert that fate. Nothing.
This is just a theory that you (and others) have absolutely no evidence for. None.

Last time I checked the planet is not losing gases to space, nor is it adding substantial amounts of gas, nor has it changed substantially since the Jurassic period apart from the concentration of carbon dioxide going down due to coal and gas sequestering gasses in the mantle.

The composition of the planet really hasn't changed that much since the formation of the oceans and yet we're supposed to starve to death due to climate change.

Again, no evidence.
It isn't contracting, its expanding. From Reuters 3/2/2021:

Including decommissions, China's coal-fired fleet capacity rose by a net 29.8 GW in 2020, even as the rest of the world made cuts of 17.2 GW, according to research released on Wednesday by Global Energy Monitor (GEM), a U.S. think tank, and the Helsinki-based Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (CREA).

"The runaway expansion of coal-fired power is driven by electricity companies' and local governments' interest in maximising investment spending, more than a real need for new capacity," said Lauri Myllyvirta, CREA lead analyst. China approved the construction of a further 36.9 GW of coal-fired capacity last year, three times more than a year earlier, bringing the total under construction to 88.1 GW. It now has 247 GW of coal power under development, enough to supply the whole of Germany.

Where does it say that China is NOT increasing CO2 emissions from its power industry? All the information that I've found points to the opposite - a massive expansion in the coal-fired power industry across China but especially in the south.

This is yet another point in time where you've made a 'broad brush' kind of statement without any links to back it up - only for me to find within two minutes information that directly contracts your claim.

And you wonder why I can't take anything you say seriously. It's because its nearly always wrong.
don_dunstan
Ocean pH is inversely proportional to CO2 in the air, as CO2 in the air has been rising since the 19th century, yes the two are linked. Once again we are talking high school chemistry here.

As pH lowers, the solubility of CaCO3, the backbone of all coral and shell fish increases. You can do this yourself at home. just get a bucket of seawater, put in some shells that have been dried and weighed and then breath through a tube for a few hours into the water then dry and weigh the shells. There are a number of published articles of scientists doing this on a larger scale, which is why the max CO2 in the atmosphere targets were lowered.

Earth does loose its atmosphere to space, but not as fast as Mars and we have replacements.

Regarding evidenced of Jurassic, none of the food you eat today was available during the Jurassic period, unless maybe you eat Crocodile, apart from that and a few other species everything else evolved long after the Jurassic period and is unlikely to survive today.

The Jurassic period was on average 5C warmer than  today due to increase CO2 emissions from increased volcanic activity. There are decades of science research behind this.

Your again "no evidence" comments are complete tripe and the worst part about it, you know you are talking rubbish.


There is a VERY BIG difference between installed capacity of output, maybe its about time you actually learnt this. Your poor parroting has just  repeated what everyone know, China is building new coal power stations to mostly replacing more polluting aging and relocate coal power stations from the cities. Having been there myself I can verify this. China has a growing very strict emissions control on dust and other, they place camera's on the top of stacks even small business stacks. The coal power stations we saw even had water misters on the stacks to eliminate dust emissions.

Its well known that most Chinese coal power stations operate well below capacity and questionable on how many actually make money. The actual output from coal power stations in China is in decline being replaced by RE and gas.    

If you pay attention to the aluminium price you will see its the highest its been in 13 years, mostly driven by China indicating will curtail aluminium production to limit coal power station emissions. They spent the last 10 years reducing CO2 emissions per tonne of aluminium, but have run out of options to push this down further so now limiting production.

Anyway, despite all this the average Chinese person produces half the CO2 / tonne than the average Australian. So becareful about pointing fingers.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Your comment is incorrect.

Here we go again. You make a whole lot of elaborate and well-thought out claims about how we are going to make the transition to 'net zero' which I will need to go through and pull apart one-by-one until there's nothing left.

Give me a reason why I should waste my precious time going though your long diatribes pointing out the inaccuracies to you? I've already found one really glaring one just scanning through it - solar panels will run eight hours a day every day.

No, they don't. And they won't.

Honestly, you need to read up more about scientific methods and debating properly - you constantly confuse opinion and heresay with fact, you don't research and/or link properly and you post things that are frankly ridiculous - like China's power industry moving towards net zero. There's no evidence for that claim at all but you happily repeat it as if its fact.

If you post things that are well researched and are actually true, I'll think about writing back to you but for the moment I think you need to work on how you argue things a bit more.
don_dunstan
Solar's output is readily available on OpenNEM. I used SA's data previously, I also have access to a few home systems by rels and friends in Australia.

https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/china

Feel free to dribble all you like about a reason and thinking, but in the mean time divert your thinking to reality.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Feel free to dribble all you like about a reason and thinking, but in the mean time divert your thinking to reality.
"RTT_Rules"
Good luck with that one.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting read


https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/05/gas-cartel-wins-again/
wobert
This is the very point that none of you on this board seem to appreciate - the cost of living and doing business in Australia is absolutely astronomical in Australia and it gets worse all the time.

At what point do you think there's going to be a collapse into the majority of the population living in abject poverty because there's no jobs here and investment has fled to cheaper destinations? I think it's coming pretty fast actually - and we're doing everything we can to hasten it including:
  • A COVID19 recovery debt that will take 33 years to pay off
  • A trillion dollar government liability coming in soon
  • The cost of building 'green' power sources to replace the nearly 80-85% fossil fuel load this country depends on to keep the lights on
  • PLUS the recently announced increase in compulsory superannuation to 12%
  • PLUS payroll tax..
Plus all the other costs of employing people here including world-beating real estate prices and a mountain of red tape to do anything and everything.

China and the developing world are (and will continue to) run rings around us and drain whats left of the productive life out of this country ad infinitum. At what point will you yourself not be able to pay for energy any longer - bet its closer than you think.

We're one generation away from 'developing nation' status.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Feel free to dribble all you like about a reason and thinking, but in the mean time divert your thinking to reality.
Good luck with that one.
Valvegear
What do you care about the struggles of young Australians to get jobs - you've got your comfy retirement. You don't care about the future of this nation - only yourself.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Japan has just dropped the building of a coal fired power station.
Well, that is going to save the world!
These idiots really think that's what they're doing when in reality all they're doing is punishing the very poorest Australians with high-priced, unreliable power and forcing yet more jobs off-shore.

How do we compete with 8 cents an hour? The answer: BRING BACK COAL.

That sums up in its entirety why you are a parrot of the loony right wing media and to put it on the record, the reason I refuse to call you 'Don Dunstan'.

That Premier of SA was a radical leftie in your terms. You would never have voted for him as he was way too visionary and in all likelihood would have embraced renewable energy had it been developed 50 years earlier.

https://www.dunstan.org.au/

Representative from SA...you are a sham Exclamation

M.
The Vinelander
My namesake knew exactly what to do with loss-making trains - sell them off for the feds to close down on our behalf.

You on the other hand want to keep a quaint little tourist train that nobody uses going. For what ends? Because twains?

I'm a lot closer to the real Don Dunstan than you could ever hope to be.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Your comment is incorrect.

Here we go again. You make a whole lot of elaborate and well-thought out claims about how we are going to make the transition to 'net zero' which I will need to go through and pull apart one-by-one until there's nothing left.

Give me a reason why I should waste my precious time going though your long diatribes pointing out the inaccuracies to you? I've already found one really glaring one just scanning through it - solar panels will run eight hours a day every day.

No, they don't. And they won't.

Honestly, you need to read up more about scientific methods and debating properly - you constantly confuse opinion and heresay with fact, you don't research and/or link properly and you post things that are frankly ridiculous - like China's power industry moving towards net zero. There's no evidence for that claim at all but you happily repeat it as if its fact.

If you post things that are well researched and are actually true, I'll think about writing back to you but for the moment I think you need to work on how you argue things a bit more.
Solar's output is readily available on OpenNEM. I used SA's data previously, I also have access to a few home systems by rels and friends in Australia.

https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/china

Feel free to dribble all you like about a reason and thinking, but in the mean time divert your thinking to reality.
RTT_Rules
What, you mean the reality that sunshine and breezes will never be any more than 25% or so of Australia's total electrical needs without causing blackouts, you mean that kind of reality?

And you're not really Australian any longer - you're a long term resident of UAE and you really don't know what's going on here any longer. You acknowledge that fact all the time when you feel the need to add in things like relations or having grown up here.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Interesting read


https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/05/gas-cartel-wins-again/
This is the very point that none of you on this board seem to appreciate - the cost of living and doing business in Australia is absolutely astronomical in Australia and it gets worse all the time.

At what point do you think there's going to be a collapse into the majority of the population living in abject poverty because there's no jobs here and investment has fled to cheaper destinations? I think it's coming pretty fast actually - and we're doing everything we can to hasten it including:
  • A COVID19 recovery debt that will take 33 years to pay off
  • A trillion dollar government liability coming in soon
  • The cost of building 'green' power sources to replace the nearly 80-85% fossil fuel load this country depends on to keep the lights on
  • PLUS the recently announced increase in compulsory superannuation to 12%
  • PLUS payroll tax..
Plus all the other costs of employing people here including world-beating real estate prices and a mountain of red tape to do anything and everything.

China and the developing world are (and will continue to) run rings around us and drain whats left of the productive life out of this country ad infinitum. At what point will you yourself not be able to pay for energy any longer - bet its closer than you think.

We're one generation away from 'developing nation' status.
don_dunstan
You have contradicted yourself

"majority of the population living in abject poverty"

"fled to cheaper destinations"

Well are we cheap or not? How can we live in abject poverty but have business flee to cheaper destinations?

Did you bother to read on how much I posted it would cost to replace coal with coal? $12-15 B just for NSW between 2021 and 2043 ($0.5B/pa), so that's $12 - 15B that needs to be spent anyway.

If you think our CV-19 debt is bad, you need to get out more.

Increase in SUPER is good for those working class retirees, why are you objecting to your fellow workers having a better standard of living in retirement?

Payroll tax is the highest level of stupidity any govt can do, yet here we are with a payroll tax since when?

You think Red tape is limited to Australia? Try building something in India or for that matter most countries in the developed and emerging world.

Yeah well we have been hearing the "we are a generation away from all sorts of stuff for decades now", yet the country still has some of the highest paid employees in the world and some of the highest standards of living in the world. I'll put that comment in the same bin with "we are 20 years away from Fusion"
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Feel free to dribble all you like about a reason and thinking, but in the mean time divert your thinking to reality.
Good luck with that one.
What do you care about the struggles of young Australians to get jobs - you've got your comfy retirement. You don't care about the future of this nation - only yourself.
don_dunstan
bitter, much!

Note Don just stated he doesn't want to see working class people get higher SUPER contribution and enjoy a "comfy retirement".
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What, you mean the reality that sunshine and breezes will never be any more than 25% or so of Australia's total electrical needs without causing blackouts, you mean that kind of reality?

And you're not really Australian any longer - you're a long term resident of UAE and you really don't know what's going on here any longer. You acknowledge that fact all the time when you feel the need to add in things like relations or having grown up here.
don_dunstan
The reality I'm referring to is the one we all live in, you should join us sometime.

In the last 7 days Solar (both PV and industrial) was 19% of total in SA (that May), by 2025 at its current rate of growth this number will be closer to 30% assuming the use of more battery and SNOWY 2.0 / SNOWY 1.0 with NSW intertie. Obviously going more than about 25% on average year round direct use is not possible, even though you live in one of the highest sun shine states.

Oh, Don has reverted to the "woo is me, you're not an Aussie anymore, you know nothing Jon Snow crap comments" despite needing to be corrected recently on NSW politics by someone out of the country.

One more time Don, why not focus on the topic at hand and not resort to personal insults and attacks, which is all you have done to multiple people here for the last few pages. Don't agree with our comments on RE, fine, state it, provide data, don't provide data, what ever, lets move on.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Well are we cheap or not? How can we live in abject poverty but have business flee to cheaper destinations?
RTT_Rules
It's easy to imagine (as John Lennon said)...

Think UK in the seventies when there was high unemployment, high inflation and living standards were falling. Nobody wanted to invest there as it simply wasn't a good place to do business.

We resemble that. High taxation, high labour costs, high energy costs (a gas cartel still gouging us as Wobert pointed out on top of everything else). Jobs are a precondition of a healthy industrial economy - we're actively chasing them off-shore.
Did you bother to read on how much I posted it would cost to replace coal with coal? $12-15 B just for NSW between 2021 and 2043 ($0.5B/pa), so that's $12 - 15B that needs to be spent anyway. If you think our CV-19 debt is bad, you need to get out more. Increase in SUPER is good for those working class retirees, why are you objecting to your fellow workers having a better standard of living in retirement? Payroll tax is the highest level of stupidity any govt can do, yet here we are with a payroll tax since when? You think Red tape is limited to Australia? Try building something in India or for that matter most countries in the developed and emerging world.
RTT_Rules
Why spend money trying to 'fix' an imaginary problem to begin with when all of our competitors (including Japan) are building loads more coal capacity? Why do we have to chase jobs off shore with a higher cost of doing business here when trade competitors are not forcing the same standards on their own industries? If you mean 'fix' as in send more jobs off-shore then yeah, we've being doing that for nearly 40 years now and I think we're pretty much world leaders in the art.

Still waiting for you to acknowledge that you were wrong about China building more and more coal. In case you haven't worked it out they agree to reduce 'emissions' and then don't do it. Surprise! It's a dictatorship that lies about everything. Do you really need that pointing out too?

Do you realise that having conversations about this kind of thing with you is really hard work! You never acknowledge when you're wrong, even when caught out red handed. You didn't know that Gladys Berejiklian was one seat away from minority in the NSW Legislative Assembly - and yes, it is a big deal, she now has to get some loopy minor party support to keep going.

It would be nice if occasionally you thanked me for doing your research for you and pointing out your endless failure to Google topics you're not up-to-date on before you comment on them.
Yeah well we have been hearing the "we are a generation away from all sorts of stuff for decades now", yet the country still has some of the highest paid employees in the world and some of the highest standards of living in the world. I'll put that comment in the same bin with "we are 20 years away from Fusion"
RTT_Rules
Yeah, and I'm still waiting for my flying car and my weekend on the moon. Which do you think will come first? You seem to think you have the knowledge to be able to predict these things with incredible accuracy despite the fact that you apparently can't Google stuff.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
What, you mean the reality that sunshine and breezes will never be any more than 25% or so of Australia's total electrical needs without causing blackouts, you mean that kind of reality?

And you're not really Australian any longer - you're a long term resident of UAE and you really don't know what's going on here any longer. You acknowledge that fact all the time when you feel the need to add in things like relations or having grown up here.
The reality I'm referring to is the one we all live in, you should join us sometime.

In the last 7 days Solar (both PV and industrial) was 19% of total in SA (that May), by 2025 at its current rate of growth this number will be closer to 30% assuming the use of more battery and SNOWY 2.0 / SNOWY 1.0 with NSW intertie. Obviously going more than about 25% on average year round direct use is not possible, even though you live in one of the highest sun shine states.
RTT_Rules
How many tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to get up to a daytime 25% - which is the most optimistic prediction as you yourself admit. What a joke.

Who pays? The poorest Australians pay. Industry pays.
Oh, Don has reverted to the "woo is me, you're not an Aussie anymore, you know nothing Jon Snow crap comments" despite needing to be corrected recently on NSW politics by someone out of the country. One more time Don, why not focus on the topic at hand and not resort to personal insults and attacks, which is all you have done to multiple people here for the last few pages. Don't agree with our comments on RE, fine, state it, provide data, don't provide data, what ever, lets move on.
RTT_Rules
Nah, I haven't insulted you personally other than to point out times when you were blatantly wrong and barely acknowledged it when I picked it up. It would be nice to get some occasional recognition as your unpaid research assistant.

And who cares how 'small' the cost of going 'carbon free' is - the fact is it will not change the final outcome for this planet anyway. Focus on your own behaviour in the here and now if you want real, enduring change - not on some unproved theory about carbon dioxide that might raise global temperatures a couple of notches.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Japan has just dropped the building of a coal fired power station.
Well, that is going to save the world!
These idiots really think that's what they're doing when in reality all they're doing is punishing the very poorest Australians with high-priced, unreliable power and forcing yet more jobs off-shore.

How do we compete with 8 cents an hour? The answer: BRING BACK COAL.

That sums up in its entirety why you are a parrot of the loony right wing media and to put it on the record, the reason I refuse to call you 'Don Dunstan'.

That Premier of SA was a radical leftie in your terms. You would never have voted for him as he was way too visionary and in all likelihood would have embraced renewable energy had it been developed 50 years earlier.

https://www.dunstan.org.au/

Representative from SA...you are a sham Exclamation

M.
My namesake knew exactly what to do with loss-making trains - sell them off for the feds to close down on our behalf.

You on the other hand want to keep a quaint little tourist train that nobody uses going. For what ends? Because twains?

I'm a lot closer to the real Don Dunstan than you could ever hope to be.
don_dunstan

Utter rubbish Exclamation

The conversation is about your loony right propaganda about renewable energy. But that's too difficult for you to refute, so in representative from SA form and in a feeble attempt at a reply...you change the subject...

You can keep going Shane if you wish, this conversation is a dry well of irrelevant comments from a flat Earther.

M
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What, you mean the reality that sunshine and breezes will never be any more than 25% or so of Australia's total electrical needs without causing blackouts, you mean that kind of reality?

And you're not really Australian any longer - you're a long term resident of UAE and you really don't know what's going on here any longer. You acknowledge that fact all the time when you feel the need to add in things like relations or having grown up here.
The reality I'm referring to is the one we all live in, you should join us sometime.

In the last 7 days Solar (both PV and industrial) was 19% of total in SA (that May), by 2025 at its current rate of growth this number will be closer to 30% assuming the use of more battery and SNOWY 2.0 / SNOWY 1.0 with NSW intertie. Obviously going more than about 25% on average year round direct use is not possible, even though you live in one of the highest sun shine states.
How many tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to get up to a daytime 25% - which is the most optimistic prediction as you yourself admit. What a joke.

Who pays? The poorest Australians pay. Industry pays.
Oh, Don has reverted to the "woo is me, you're not an Aussie anymore, you know nothing Jon Snow crap comments" despite needing to be corrected recently on NSW politics by someone out of the country. One more time Don, why not focus on the topic at hand and not resort to personal insults and attacks, which is all you have done to multiple people here for the last few pages. Don't agree with our comments on RE, fine, state it, provide data, don't provide data, what ever, lets move on.
Nah, I haven't insulted you personally other than to point out times when you were blatantly wrong and barely acknowledged it when I picked it up. It would be nice to get some occasional recognition as your unpaid research assistant.

And who cares how 'small' the cost of going 'carbon free' is - the fact is it will not change the final outcome for this planet anyway. Focus on your own behaviour in the here and now if you want real, enduring change - not on some unproved theory about carbon dioxide that might raise global temperatures a couple of notches.
don_dunstan
Sa has about 1300 MW of installed PV solar @ US $1M/ MW or $1.2 B Ozzie thats $1.5B installed for nearly 20%, so another $0.75 B to get to 30% and the ongoing costs are very small selling power for around $20-30 MWh. Not really 10's of billions is it Don.

Now you said
"How many tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to get up to a daytime 25%"

Then you said
"other than to point out times when you were blatantly wrong and barely acknowledged it when I picked it up"

Perhaps the problem is you cannot pick up on your own mistakes Don.


The flip side cost is
The cost of coal is around A$2.5 B to replace Northern (800 MW) with a much higher operating cost with dispatched power $60 - 100/MWh.

SA's demand is average 1700 MW with swings frequently exceeding 3000 MW pushing 3500 MW before solar PV, now 3200 MW.

So even after spending $2.5B for a new coal power station, you still need to buy 3000 MW of CCGT, OCGT and peaking diesel/gas. At around $0.5 /MW or $1.5B as a starter.

So starting at $4B to replace Sth Australia's fossil fuel energy sources with more modern versions of the same and yo are still burning $hitty coal that needs to be hauled one of the longest coal routes in Australia (260km) with just one train a day to pay for the line and then transmit the power another ~300 km.

And you wonder why Sth Australia's power was so F'n expensive long before the first wind turbine was every thought of!

As for your research assistant and comment you should be paid, PM your address, a bag of peanuts is on its way.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


You can keep going Shane if you wish, this conversation is a dry well of irrelevant comments from a flat Earther.

M
The Vinelander
Yep, I agree with you Mike.

Once again another thread has gone down the rabbit hole of south pity and grossly over stated costs plucked from no where, going off track to cover his made up claims and throwing around insults when all else fails and sooner or later the another thread will be blocked.

I'm an optimists, so I'm going to assume that Don isn't the person he presents here and maybe one day if the govt lets us back in to the country I'll drop by SA to visit a few friends and rels and take time out to put a beer on the bar to see if anyone will be there to pick it up.

I enjoy the technical debates/discussions on power, but this race to the bottom to see how stupid a comment someone can say next BS is really pointless and I'm going to do myself a favor and take time out for about two weeks to focus on other stuff. If the thread isn't blocked by then I'll see you on the other side. Enjoy! Smile
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Feel free to dribble all you like about a reason and thinking, but in the mean time divert your thinking to reality.
Good luck with that one.
What do you care about the struggles of young Australians to get jobs - you've got your comfy retirement. You don't care about the future of this nation - only yourself.
bitter, much!

Note Don just stated he doesn't want to see working class people get higher SUPER contribution and enjoy a "comfy retirement".
RTT_Rules
Every single time the cost of business is increased in this country we chase more and more jobs off-shore to competing cheaper destinations like Thailand and Indonesia. We struggle to make even simple things in this country like house bricks any longer because the cost of labour and energy is cheaper in the United States - so we import them from there now.

And you seriously don't think that's a long term problem? Businesses in this state are struggling under the weight of the taxation and superannuation burden, let me assure you.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Utter rubbish Exclamation

The conversation is about your loony right propaganda about renewable energy. But that's too difficult for you to refute, so in representative from SA form and in a feeble attempt at a reply...you change the subject...

You can keep going Shane if you wish, this conversation is a dry well of irrelevant comments from a flat Earther.

M
The Vinelander
You started off on this thread on Saturday for the first time, practically begging me to talk to you because I hadn't acknowledged your presence for months. I know how enamored you are with me so I felt sorry for you enough to give you the time of day...

I didn't change the subject, I pointed out that the real Don Dunstan got rid of SAR lock stock and barrel because it was a huge dead-weight on the South Australian taxpayer. And it made you cry into your gin because you realised that for the millionth time I was right about everything and you were wrong.

And now you've been proven wrong about it you're stamping your feet and marching out in a huffy like the child that you are.

Goodbye, Mike. See you in another ten minutes?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Sa has about 1300 MW of installed PV solar @ US $1M/ MW or $1.2 B Ozzie thats $1.5B installed for nearly 20%, so another $0.75 B to get to 30% and the ongoing costs are very small selling power for around $20-30 MWh. Not really 10's of billions is it Don.

Now you said
"How many tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to get up to a daytime 25%"

Then you said
"other than to point out times when you were blatantly wrong and barely acknowledged it when I picked it up"

Perhaps the problem is you cannot pick up on your own mistakes Don.
RTT_Rules
I'm still waiting for you to apologise to me over your Berejiklian/Chinese coal plants gaffes. Some people would actually be embarrassed by their mistakes but not you - you just keep sailing along as if it didn't happen.

Anyway you got that figure from this website and it's wrong. They're talking about the very cheapest panels and they are not including the cost of the land, the cost of the HV lines to service the 'solar farm' and the cost to the environment. The destruction of prime farming land for solar farms discussed more in this ABC article. As usual farmers don't get a say in what politicians have already decided.

How many acres of productive farm land rendered unusable by solar farms? Solar farms tend to occupy the best farming land closest to our cities (by necessity). They're pig-ugly, they preclude wildlife and any agricultural activity and they cause enormous columns of heat to rise up during the summer.
The cost of coal is around A$2.5 B to replace Northern (800 MW) with a much higher operating cost with dispatched power $60 - 100/MWh. SA's demand is average 1700 MW with swings frequently exceeding 3000 MW pushing 3500 MW before solar PV, now 3200 MW. So even after spending $2.5B for a new coal power station, you still need to buy 3000 MW of CCGT, OCGT and peaking diesel/gas. At around $0.5 /MW or $1.5B as a starter. So starting at $4B to replace Sth Australia's fossil fuel energy sources with more modern versions of the same and yo are still burning $hitty coal that needs to be hauled one of the longest coal routes in Australia (260km) with just one train a day to pay for the line and then transmit the power another ~300 km. And you wonder why Sth Australia's power was so F'n expensive long before the first wind turbine was every thought of! As for your research assistant and comment you should be paid, PM your address, a bag of peanuts is on its way.
RTT_Rules
Where did I say I wanted to replace Northern? Putting words into my mouth that I didn't say.

Northern was at least reliable - unlike sunshine and breezes. And as Arctic pointed out it could have been constructed much cheaper and more efficiently -

So can I expect an apology from you for being absolutely wrong about Chinese coal fired plants? Here's yet another article from February this year that you failed to Google before making the ridiculous statement that China isn't building any more coal fired power plants:

China put 38.4 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired power capacity into operation in 2020, according to new international research, more than three times the amount built elsewhere around the world and potentially undermining its short-term climate goals. China approved the construction of a further 36.9 GW of coal-fired capacity last year, three times more than a year earlier, bringing the total under construction to 88.1 GW. It now has 247 GW of coal power under development, enough to supply the whole of Germany.  

The information was right there and yet you made the most embarrassing gaffe possible declaring that:

Also China is not increase CO2 emissions from the power sector, its actually contracting. (RTT_Rules 1/5/2021).

So again, are you ever going to admit that you were wrong about that one major fact or are you just going to keep spouting more inaccuracies hoping that I don't pick them up?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud


You can keep going Shane if you wish, this conversation is a dry well of irrelevant comments from a flat Earther.

MYep, I agree with you Mike.

Once again another thread has gone down the rabbit hole of south pity and grossly over stated costs plucked from no where, going off track to cover his made up claims and throwing around insults when all else fails and sooner or later the another thread will be blocked.
RTT_Rules
The only 'insult' I've made is the observation that you are an ex-pat who hasn't lived here in many years and really doesn't know what's going on here any longer. Which I think is a fair comment borne out by your lack of understanding of things like local politics. You also comment on things that you don't understand without doing some much as a rudimentary Google seach which I think has also been pretty conclusively proven over the last few pages don't you think.

This thread will only be locked if people other than me want it to be. We've had three attempts at a Joe Biden thread now and every single time it gets locked because there's a hard core of socialists on this board who don't want any discussion about him.

Why?
I'm an optimists, so I'm going to assume that Don isn't the person he presents here and maybe one day if the govt lets us back in to the country I'll drop by SA to visit a few friends and rels and take time out to put a beer on the bar to see if anyone will be there to pick it up. I enjoy the technical debates/discussions on power, but this race to the bottom to see how stupid a comment someone can say next BS is really pointless and I'm going to do myself a favor and take time out for about two weeks to focus on other stuff. If the thread isn't blocked by then I'll see you on the other side. Enjoy!
RTT_Rules
You're just angry at me because I don't think the same way that you (and many others here) do.

I watched part two of the Saint Greta Thurnsberg documentary last night and it was just another regurgitation of baseless allegations of 'climate change' being responsible for melting glaciers (not the fact that they melt all by themselves) and a really spurious allegation that climate change was causing fungus to die off in the Arctic circle threatening reindeer farming - again, not a shred of evidence to support it.

Why is China allowed to enjoy the benefits of 8 cents an hour electricity, building more coal fired power plants than the whole of Germany - and yet we're not allowed to have a single new one in this country?

Economic suicide.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Why is China allowed to enjoy the benefits of 8 cents an hour electricity, building more coal fired power plants than the whole of Germany - and yet we're not allowed to have a single new one in this country?

Economic suicide.
don_dunstan
Because morons like *** (Preemptive censorship, breach of forum rules) believe all the self serving BS published in The Australia.

We are now in the ridiculous position of seeing taxpayer funded pollution "invested" to protect what is inappropriately described as a "business model".  Depending on your ideology and whether or not you agree with me, you can decide for yourself if I'm talking about SH2 or peaking gas at Liddell.

The fact is we f***d up our privatisations, and effectively sold the right to levy taxation to fund our (increasingly obsolete) utilities.  The people who own those rights clearly aren't going to just hand them back.

The inconvenient truth - and it is still true despite my deliberately using that phrase - is modern RE is now vastly cheaper than traditional fuel fired power.  The only reason wind is not supplanting coal en-mass through pricing power alone, is it's undermined economically by the fact (sorry, inconvenient truth) PV solar is 3 times cheaper during the day.

The biggest "problem" with RE is not just that costing 2c/h to produce rather undermines the justification for charging 30c/hr for it, it's that it's highly scalable and can be distributed/embedded bypassing the primary need for the grid, and centralised "management".  RE potentially undermines not just the justification, but the ability, to clips everyone's tickets.

The fact is, we don't have an electricity market in Australia, despite the pretence.  We have a regulatory system based on ensuring everyone pays an ever increasing privatised tax, not because of, but despite, the underlying economics.  And it's continuing because, well ...  TLDR.

@don, if you want to know why your are not paying (way) less than 8c/hr, look in the mirror.

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