The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Wind is a supplement for hydro and peaking gas.
No - that's not what is being discussed in this country. In fact MP Zali Steggall wants to ban the use of natural gas in electricity generation - Member for Warringah

Zali Steggall MP is calling for the Morrison government’s decision to reset the COVID-19 recovery with gas to be rejected.

“This government is interfering in the market and not supporting the renewable industry,” she said.

“Today the Morrison government has captain’s picked the technology of gas, whilst blackmailing private companies on an economic decision that is widely condemned by scientists, economists and investors.

“This is completely against any kind of free market liberalism and shows how far Scott Morrison is willing to go to support fossil fuels over sound economic management and jobs.

“We need to transition away from coal and gas to mitigate increasing temperatures caused by climate change. Yet we have a government that is willing to ignore that renewables deliver more than double the jobs than fossil fuels, as well as disregarding the science, the industry and even investors.”

Not everyone is as much of a zealot as she is but there's certainly people who think the same as she does. They sincerely believe that we shouldn't have any sort of gas, coal or nuclear generation at all in this country.
don_dunstan
I said Govt Don, note that the IND MP for Warringah is not the Govt nor even the balance of power and unlikely to be in the house after the next election.

There are people who still believe the earth is flat and publish this on websites such as tfes.org, it doesn't mean we need to listen to them.

SCOMO is however head of the Govt and as you have clearly highlighted clearly leading the move to a lower CO2/MW economy by replacing aging coal power stations with more  gas and bringing in other opportunities to store surplus power from wind and solar through SNOWY 2.0.

Sponsored advertisement

  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Renewable energy is really good for the environment. Smile
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
I think we've passed gas now, pardon me. It was so 10 years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/feb/05/worlds-biggest-battery-with-1200mw-capacity-set-to-be-built-in-nsw-hunter-valley-australia
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Isn't it funny how Don is always schlepping on about how the working man has been screwed Keating and Hawke, but when the working man in Texas is getting right royally screwed by the anarchic and incapable free market power generators there charging them $1000 a day electricity bills somehow that's quite OK, and if it isn't then it's all the fault of the Greenies.

These troggos and their fascination with burning rocks Razz
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Isn't it funny how Don is always schlepping on about how the working man has been screwed Keating and Hawke, but when the working man in Texas is getting right royally screwed by the anarchic and incapable free market power generators there charging them $1000 a day electricity bills somehow that's quite OK, and if it isn't then it's all the fault of the Greenies.

These troggos and their fascination with burning rocks Razz
bingley hall
The same people who were being charged $1000/day for power signed a contract to buy power off the spot price and have previously enjoyed lower cost power by taking on the risk, rather than paying a retailer to take on wholesale power price flucuation risk.

So no, no one was royally screwed and its got nothing to do with Green or right side of politics.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I think we've passed gas now, pardon me. It was so 10 years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/feb/05/worlds-biggest-battery-with-1200mw-capacity-set-to-be-built-in-nsw-hunter-valley-australia
wobert
If we are talking about replacing aging coal power stations over the coming 5 years, no, likely even 10 years.

That 1200 MW Battery while huge on its own right is basically SFA in the big picture. The battery will be great for moderating wind and solar fluctuation and helping with evening peak by sustaining 200 - 300MW of supply for a few hours, but chemical battery technology is no where near yet suited to replacing base load gas and coal power.

To supply say 1000 MW of continuous demand
- Wind/battery technology requires 3000 - 4000 MW of installed generating capacity plus a suitable battery sized to ensure continuous supply, likely coupled with solar.  

- CCGT Technology, 4 plants rated at 350 MW each operating at 62% efficiency

I strongly suspect gas will win this battle on cost, for now!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Isn't it funny how Don is always schlepping on about how the working man has been screwed Keating and Hawke, but when the working man in Texas is getting right royally screwed by the anarchic and incapable free market power generators there charging them $1000 a day electricity bills somehow that's quite OK, and if it isn't then it's all the fault of the Greenies.

These troggos and their fascination with burning rocks Razz
bingley hall
It was Labor's policy to privatise the electricity grid too - Keating offered the states money if they did it.

Where did I say it was okay for private consumers to be charged $1,000 a day?

Burning rocks got us to where we are today, girlfriend. Windmills and Chinese-made solar panels will send us back to the stone ages.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm by-passing the 'locking' of the Aussie Politics Thread to answer Valvegear -

You're wasting your time. I have already told you that this one topic will never address your consistent lack of evidence over past years. You have ignored the point or, more likely, used this particular piece of filibustering to fool yourself into believing that you are a great provider of evidence when many years' experience says you're not. . . and you wonder why so many of us are critical. Sorry Don; you have failed this one, and no amount of "crying in my gin", or "just can't resist me" or any other of your self-opinionated sayings is going to make a blind bit of difference. You have been failing the evidence test for years. This attempt is a belated one-off.
Valvegear
I'm trying to explain to you that an area of research is extremely complicated and that the 'current' thinking changes all the time and it's still not good enough for you. "This will never address your consistent lack of evidence..." This goes back to the fact that this is a CHAT BOARD and not an academic research paper where everything must be linked and cited.

This doesn't apply to RTT_Rules who consistently fails to distinguish between opinion and fact.

And so what if I haven't provided enough evidence to your satisfaction - I did the same thing today with Michael presenting him with direct evidence of what he was asking for and it still wasn't good enough for him, he still used that to attack me. Why is it that when I back up what I'm saying with links and facts that it still isn't good enough for you people - why should I bother under those circumstances?

There's no pleasing you people because you're all bigots who are not prepared to see the falsehoods in the things you believe - even when directly confronted with contradictory evidence of what you believe you still go into cognitive dissonance and want to shoot the messenger.

Open your mind - even at 80 you can change your perceptions of how the world operates and its not fatal.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Don, I'm sorry that you are either being deliberately obtuse, or are just silly. What don't you understand about my point that you have for years persistently failed to support your statements with evidence?  You keep going on about one recent issue, and ignoring the point. One must conclude that you cannot rebut my point, and everyone is now free to see that. They can also see that, as usual when you are painted into a corner, the name-calling starts; " . . . you are all bigots". What a shame.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This goes back to the fact that this is a CHAT BOARD and not an academic research paper where everything must be linked and cited.

This doesn't apply to RTT_Rules who consistently fails to distinguish between opinion and fact.

don_dunstan
Interesting comments
- 99.99% of your posts are opinion, not fact and
- State we are not writing academic papers here, agree, but when you don't like what some else is posting, its just a unsupported opinion.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It was Labor's policy to privatise the electricity grid too - Keating offered the states money if they did it.

Where did I say it was okay for private consumers to be charged $1,000 a day?

Burning rocks got us to where we are today, girlfriend. Windmills and Chinese-made solar panels will send us back to the stone ages.
don_dunstan
What was wrong with a privatised grid or partially privatised as each state has had a different approach?

Privatisation and burning rocks are not related to each other.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
It was Labor's policy to privatise the electricity grid too - Keating offered the states money if they did it.

Where did I say it was okay for private consumers to be charged $1,000 a day?

Burning rocks got us to where we are today, girlfriend. Windmills and Chinese-made solar panels will send us back to the stone ages.
What was wrong with a privatised grid or partially privatised as each state has had a different approach?

Privatisation and burning rocks are not related to each other.
RTT_Rules
Which state has a different approach? Every state bar Tasmania and the Northern Territory have all privatised their power networks now - generation, transmission and retailing. WA is still scoping but its likely that they'll do the same.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Don, I'm sorry that you are either being deliberately obtuse, or are just silly. What don't you understand about my point that you have for years persistently failed to support your statements with evidence?  You keep going on about one recent issue, and ignoring the point. One must conclude that you cannot rebut my point, and everyone is now free to see that. They can also see that, as usual when you are painted into a corner, the name-calling starts; " . . . you are all bigots". What a shame.
Valvegear
I've tried in vain to explain to you that an issue is extremely complicated and you still don't seem to get it - you still blame me for a failure to fully defend my position because there's no 'correct' answers. But you're obviously someone for whom 'grey' areas don't work - where are multitude of opinions, different research results and a lack of consensus doesn't work because you need to have absolute truths where perhaps there are none.

Whatever.

And I called you all bigots in the context of something entirely different to what is being discussed here - the fact is there's many people here who are clearly bigoted. They don't want to change their minds about how they think even when directly confronted with contradictory evidence.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Californian solar plant accidentially incinerates 6,000 birds a year - Science Alert;

The problem has been going on since the site opened in 2014, and the team says it's trying everything to save the birds from a fiery fate. But so far, the perfect solution has eluded them.

"We're doing everything we can to reduce the number of birds killed out here," the plant's spokesman, David Knox, told Louis Sahagun at the LA Times. "If there's a silver bullet out there, maybe we'll find it."

The sight of a bird being fried to death is so common at the Ivanpah Solar Plant in California's Mojave Desert, that workers have nicknamed the smouldering birds "streamers", because they leave tiny wisps of white smoke behind as they burn up in the sky.

So why is this happening?

Well, it's mainly due to the plant's overall design and location. Unlike typical solar farms that use photovoltaic panels on a large scale, the site at Ivanpah is built on entirely different principles. To catch sunlight, the plant uses 5 square miles (12.9 square kilometres) of giant mirrors that focus beams of concentrated sunlight onto three different 40-storey-tall towers.

They were going to build some very large scale versions of this kind of power plant at Port Augusta (SA) but the construction of the new HV line to NSW has made them unviable. Maybe just as well...

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What was wrong with a privatised grid or partially privatised as each state has had a different approach?

Privatisation and burning rocks are not related to each other.
Which state has a different approach? Every state bar Tasmania and the Northern Territory have all privatised their power networks now - generation, transmission and retailing. WA is still scoping but its likely that they'll do the same.
don_dunstan
Umm Qld!

The Qld govt has been the biggest benefactor (not the private sector) of the high wholesale prices that existing across the east coast until early 2020.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
What was wrong with a privatised grid or partially privatised as each state has had a different approach?

Privatisation and burning rocks are not related to each other.
Which state has a different approach? Every state bar Tasmania and the Northern Territory have all privatised their power networks now - generation, transmission and retailing. WA is still scoping but its likely that they'll do the same.
Umm Qld!

The Qld govt has been the biggest benefactor (not the private sector) of the high wholesale prices that existing across the east coast until early 2020.
RTT_Rules
Local generation is predominantly in private hands now in 2021 (especially 'renewables') as is the retail side of the business where you still have the 'choice' of providers but there's increasing private competition making inroads into the government's business. Distributor/retailers Energex and Ergon don't even operate the poles and wires - these are maintained by Powerlink. All these organisations are ready-to-go with privatisation - they operate as distinct corporate entities with a governance structure that will allow them to be floated or sold when the time comes.

Queensland's state debt is projected in budget papers to hit $130,000,000,000 in 2024 so I really don't see those businesses remaining in state government hands for much longer - do you?
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
And I called you all bigots in the context of something entirely different to what is being discussed here - the fact is there's many people here who are clearly bigoted. They don't want to change their minds about how they think even when directly confronted with contradictory evidence.
don_dunstan
Do you own a mirror?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
And I called you all bigots in the context of something entirely different to what is being discussed here - the fact is there's many people here who are clearly bigoted. They don't want to change their minds about how they think even when directly confronted with contradictory evidence.
Do you own a mirror?
DirtyBallast
You've managed to get two threads closed with your gutter-talk (that I'm aware of), please just go away.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
"Do you own a mirror" is gutter talk? ? ? ?

"I called you all bigots" is not ? ? ?

Standard Operating Procedure again; one rule for Don; another for everyone else.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
And I called you all bigots in the context of something entirely different to what is being discussed here - the fact is there's many people here who are clearly bigoted. They don't want to change their minds about how they think even when directly confronted with contradictory evidence.
Do you own a mirror?
You've managed to get two threads closed with your gutter-talk (that I'm aware of), please just go away.
don_dunstan
Laughing
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
"Do you own a mirror" is gutter talk? ? ? ?

"I called you all bigots" is not ? ? ?

Standard Operating Procedure again; one rule for Don; another for everyone else.
Valvegear

You're forgetting that the representative from SA is always correct... even when he's incorrect Exclamation
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What was wrong with a privatised grid or partially privatised as each state has had a different approach?

Privatisation and burning rocks are not related to each other.
Which state has a different approach? Every state bar Tasmania and the Northern Territory have all privatised their power networks now - generation, transmission and retailing. WA is still scoping but its likely that they'll do the same.
Umm Qld!

The Qld govt has been the biggest benefactor (not the private sector) of the high wholesale prices that existing across the east coast until early 2020.
Local generation is predominantly in private hands now in 2021 (especially 'renewables') as is the retail side of the business where you still have the 'choice' of providers but there's increasing private competition making inroads into the government's business. Distributor/retailers Energex and Ergon don't even operate the poles and wires - these are maintained by Powerlink. All these organisations are ready-to-go with privatisation - they operate as distinct corporate entities with a governance structure that will allow them to be floated or sold when the time comes.

Queensland's state debt is projected in budget papers to hit $130,000,000,000 in 2024 so I really don't see those businesses remaining in state government hands for much longer - do you?
don_dunstan
Do you want to stop and listen or are you continuing to dig the hole of "no f'n clue"? Once again a "foreigner" has to tell you about your own country. Remember that next time you try and spin that the other way.


As I know you love a reference despite never reading them
http://www.qld.gov.au

Distributors of which there are 3 in Qld, Energex (Qld Govt), Ergon (Qld Govt) and Essential Energy (NSW I have no idea nor care as only looks after Goodiwindi)

"Are Responsible for:
- Poles and Wires
- Metering (old meters only)
- Lines down
- Restoring power"

"Powerlink (Govt owned)
Owns and operates 15,000 km of transmission network", not distrubution.

Retails do not own anything, they simply buy and resell power, you don't have to use a private retailer

They have all been distinct corp entities for over 25 years as the days of a Govt money bleeding departments are over.  Corp entities bring a certain level of governance that govt departs are immune from.

As for Local generation
All but two of the coal fleet are govt owned of those two.

One was built from scratch privately Millmerran Power station because the Qld govt was broke at the time and the grid was a disastor, the 2nd coal power station, Gladstone was sold to Rio Tinto&NRG to provide to provide the assurance Rio needed to invest in Potline 3 at Boyne with a requirement 1/3 of the power is still available for the grid, realistically pandering to idiots with this as they buy the equivalent from others.

Of interest the day the 5 year job cut mortarium was up following the sale Gladstone, 90 people were made redundant and the carpark at night and weekends became empty, yet the power remained on and 25 years later, is still on.


A number of the coal power station companies also own RE generation, both preexisting and new and new RE projects are not limited to govt or Private entities.

Its worth noting that 8% (increasing by about 20- 30%pa) of Qld power generation is directly owned by "mums and dads", not big corporations. Similar to SA.


Qld has refused to sell its power assets for decades and won't do until such a time its clear the coal power stations are no longer the gold mine they are. Likewise the HV and local networks, you are only 2nd guessing of what the future holds regarding future ownership.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Big news out of the Latrobe Valley this morning.  Yallourn brown coal power station to shut in 2028, 4 years ahead of original plans.  That's 1450 GW out of the grid.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/energyaustralia-says-yallourn-coal-generator-to-close-early-in-2028/

Also interesting to note a 350 GW/4 hour battery will be installed in 2026.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Big news out of the Latrobe Valley this morning.  Yallourn brown coal power station to shut in 2028, 4 years ahead of original plans.  That's 1450 GW out of the grid.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/energyaustralia-says-yallourn-coal-generator-to-close-early-in-2028/

Also interesting to note a 350 GW/4 hour battery will be installed in 2026.
Carnot

A huge amount of power making me think about how this will be found in renewables?
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Big news out of the Latrobe Valley this morning.  Yallourn brown coal power station to shut in 2028, 4 years ahead of original plans.  That's 1450 GW out of the grid.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/energyaustralia-says-yallourn-coal-generator-to-close-early-in-2028/

Also interesting to note a 350 GW/4 hour battery will be installed in 2026.

A huge amount of power making me think about how this will be found in renewables?
bevans
It already has.

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Subscribers: bevans, RTT_Rules

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