The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Keep your pants on Don, no need to be so sensitive, or 'sensibile' as our Latin friends say. I just pointed out that you are one of the few Australians who don't know Brian Cadd's biggest hit, after you yourself offensively admitted to not knowing who he is. Or do you know him, yet get some perverse pleasure in putting on an ignorant show?
billybaxter
Billy - THAT'S your idea of sunshine?

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  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
You sound like you need a dose of Collen Hewett to cheer you up -



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuZiDnD5xrg
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
There's been a 'wind drought' across southern and eastern Australia in the last few weeks with a high pressure system dominating our winter weather. Its become particularly acute in the last 12 hours with Victoria generating exactly ZERO from its many thousands of wind turbines, Queensland at 3% and NSW at 4%. My own state barely able to manage 8% of the total load this morning despite our reliance on this intermittent source of energy - the HV inter-connector to VIC is at full tilt, our gas turbines are at full blast and we've even managed to fire up the diesel generators in the last 24 hours... very 'green' isn't it.

The wholesale price of energy has (of course) gone through the roof with VIC @ $300 mw/h, SA $299, NSW $259 and QLD $249 as I write.

But renewables are always cheaper... aren't they.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Yep
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
This has probably got something to do with it.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/double-whammy-wholesale-gas-prices-hit-five-year-highs-20210707-p587m7.html


Now just imagine in 10 years or so, when there are several million electric cars in the country. They will be able to pump into the grid at times of peak demand, evening and morning, then wander off during the day and recharge when wind and solar are at their peak.  That should help the intermittency issues.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

This has probably got something to do with it.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/double-whammy-wholesale-gas-prices-hit-five-year-highs-20210707-p587m7.html


Now just imagine in 10 years or so, when there are several million electric cars in the country. They will be able to pump into the grid at times of peak demand, evening and morning, then wander off during the day and recharge when wind and solar are at their peak.  That should help the intermittency issues.
wobert
Not if they're allowed to charge consumers for feeding back into the grid it won't.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Filling up EVs with power during the daytime would require many workplace carparks to install chargers.  How many would be keen to do that without big subsidies/tax breaks?

Anyway, hydro power has certainly helped in recent days for SE Australia.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
This has probably got something to do with it.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/double-whammy-wholesale-gas-prices-hit-five-year-highs-20210707-p587m7.html


Now just imagine in 10 years or so, when there are several million electric cars in the country. They will be able to pump into the grid at times of peak demand, evening and morning, then wander off during the day and recharge when wind and solar are at their peak.  That should help the intermittency issues.
wobert
What if you need your electric car charged at night instead of at off-peak (day) times? What if the wind fails during the day and its cloudy and you urgently need to charge your electric car?

"Sorry we can't let you charge your car today" says the power company by text.
Anyway, hydro power has certainly helped in recent days for SE Australia.
Carnot
Let's close all the coal-fired power plants anyway - you heard Wobert, intermittent power will do the job with no interruption and needs no capital or infrastructure replacement... ever.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
What if what if..... what if the dog didn't stop for a dump, it would have caught the rabbit
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
What if what if..... what if the dog didn't stop for a dump, it would have caught the rabbit
wobert
IN all seriousness the 'battery' that they've planned to replace Liddell - 2,000 mw/h capacity incidentally - will run for barely quarter of an hour before it conks out, and it only puts out a quarter of what Liddell did anyway. And the cost is a snip @ $1.4 billion.

This stuff simply isn't suitable for the tasks its being deployed for and there's no technological development coming any time soon that will change that. The move to mythical 'zero' will require many hundreds of billions to complete a whole new HV grid AND sink capital (stolen from the poorest grid users) to build things like pumped hydro and batteries. And even then two or three days of a slow-moving high pressure system in winter will still completely bugger it all up and we'll probably have NEM national blackouts.

Not fit for purpose.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
Filling up EVs with power during the daytime would require many workplace carparks to install chargers.  How many would be keen to do that without big subsidies/tax breaks?
Carnot
If they are genuinely trying to attract people to work for them, plenty.

Offering a carpark space with a charger could become a standard perk in the not too distant future.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

An interesting proposal and investment regarding Hydrogen production and export to Japan from Aussie solar farms:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/japan-giant-signs-deal-for-30-australian-solar-farms-with-battery-and-hydrogen-storage/

Does anyone else see the big problem here?

Yep, transportation costs and potential for more road congestion and destruction. It's worth reading the comments section.  It could be an opportunity for more rail freight, but even then there are huge challenges given how bad access to most of our major ports is at present.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Filling up EVs with power during the daytime would require many workplace carparks to install chargers.  How many would be keen to do that without big subsidies/tax breaks?
If they are genuinely trying to attract people to work for them, plenty.

Offering a carpark space with a charger could become a standard perk in the not too distant future.
DirtyBallast
And supermarket car parks are going to be ideal. Previously the supermarkets gave a several cent discount on fuel. Free charging would be  in a similar category
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
supermarket car parks are going to be ideal. Previously the supermarkets gave a several cent discount on fuel. Free charging would be  in a similar category
wobert
How are supermarket car parks ideal for EV charging? Who spends more than 20-30 minutes in a supermarket? Don't a large proportion of shoppers opt for online shopping with delivery or click and collect these days?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
supermarket car parks are going to be ideal. Previously the supermarkets gave a several cent discount on fuel. Free charging would be  in a similar category
How are supermarket car parks ideal for EV charging? Who spends more than 20-30 minutes in a supermarket? Don't a large proportion of shoppers opt for online shopping with delivery or click and collect these days?
Graham4405
Most people spend that long Graham.

30 min will add 25% to 33% to the battery level assuming the chargers are around 50kW, less than super charger.

Then again if they are not driving they don't need to charge either.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The wind drought on the east coast continues - energy prices still @ $300 mw/h around the country tonight. Coal fired power stations keeping the country going - as usual.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What if what if..... what if the dog didn't stop for a dump, it would have caught the rabbit
IN all seriousness the 'battery' that they've planned to replace Liddell - 2,000 mw/h capacity incidentally - will run for barely quarter of an hour before it conks out, and it only puts out a quarter of what Liddell did anyway. And the cost is a snip @ $1.4 billion.

This stuff simply isn't suitable for the tasks its being deployed for and there's no technological development coming any time soon that will change that. The move to mythical 'zero' will require many hundreds of billions to complete a whole new HV grid AND sink capital (stolen from the poorest grid users) to build things like pumped hydro and batteries. And even then two or three days of a slow-moving high pressure system in winter will still completely bugger it all up and we'll probably have NEM national blackouts.

Not fit for purpose.
don_dunstan
In all seriousness, the battery is not intended to replace Liddell and our reference to Liddell capacity is years out of date.

Liddell is rated at 1600 MW, replacement is made from a number of sources
- 10% increase in output from Bayswater
- Increased capacity to import from Qld
- Snowy 2.0
- Around 1000 MW of peaking gas capacity
- a number of battery's
- Growing number of solar and wind in NSW.

Liddell's replacement with another coal fired power station is around $3.6B, plus ongoing operating costs, such as coal consumption. That's alot of capital and OPEX to fund alternates.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The wind drought on the east coast continues - energy prices still @ $300 mw/h around the country tonight. Coal fired power stations keeping the country going - as usual.
don_dunstan
Not the "wind drought", although there is no such thing as much as high demand all round.

The low wind is affecting only some states not all, which is why geographic diversification is so important for any sort of energy supply.

Coal's % of supply for last week is lower than on average for 2020-21. Continuing the trend down over 30 years.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This has probably got something to do with it.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/double-whammy-wholesale-gas-prices-hit-five-year-highs-20210707-p587m7.html


Now just imagine in 10 years or so, when there are several million electric cars in the country. They will be able to pump into the grid at times of peak demand, evening and morning, then wander off during the day and recharge when wind and solar are at their peak.  That should help the intermittency issues.
Not if they're allowed to charge consumers for feeding back into the grid it won't.
Madjikthise
You need to understand the reason why this is happening now because assuming it will continue long term.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This has probably got something to do with it.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/double-whammy-wholesale-gas-prices-hit-five-year-highs-20210707-p587m7.html


Now just imagine in 10 years or so, when there are several million electric cars in the country. They will be able to pump into the grid at times of peak demand, evening and morning, then wander off during the day and recharge when wind and solar are at their peak.  That should help the intermittency issues.
What if you need your electric car charged at night instead of at off-peak (day) times? What if the wind fails during the day and its cloudy and you urgently need to charge your electric car?

"Sorry we can't let you charge your car today" says the power company by text.
Anyway, hydro power has certainly helped in recent days for SE Australia.
Let's close all the coal-fired power plants anyway - you heard Wobert, intermittent power will do the job with no interruption and needs no capital or infrastructure replacement... ever.
don_dunstan
The car battery concept feeding the grid is I think over estimated and why I think only a few car manufacturers offer the option. Sure I'm sure most people could allow their car to dump 10kWh into the house during evening peak but then they most likely need it back within 12hr. This is why I think the house battery concept will be more attractive.

There will also not be 7m cars by 2030, be lucky to be more than 1 - 1.5m.

If we look to say 2235, its likely that 50% of 10m houses will have home batteries of at least 20kW, this will provide 100 GWh of power for both internal use and option to sell into the grid. This plus other grid options such as large batteries, peaking power and normal RE is why coal will eventually be phased out by 2040. Peaking gas will be here for a bit longer.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
supermarket car parks are going to be ideal. Previously the supermarkets gave a several cent discount on fuel. Free charging would be  in a similar category
How are supermarket car parks ideal for EV charging? Who spends more than 20-30 minutes in a supermarket? Don't a large proportion of shoppers opt for online shopping with delivery or click and collect these days?
Do a full grocery shop for a family and you'll find out. And then you wander up the street to the next joint....
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Fast charging of 5 to 10 minutes is not far off now

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
As for cars charging your house

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2022/
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
supermarket car parks are going to be ideal. Previously the supermarkets gave a several cent discount on fuel. Free charging would be  in a similar category
How are supermarket car parks ideal for EV charging? Who spends more than 20-30 minutes in a supermarket? Don't a large proportion of shoppers opt for online shopping with delivery or click and collect these days?
Do a full grocery shop for a family and you'll find out. And then you wander up the street to the next joint....
wobert
We had a family of 6. I did it weekly for many years. 20 min in the supermarket on the way home from work (wife did not have a licence) was all I ever needed.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Fast charging of 5 to 10 minutes is not far off now

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times
wobert
Yeah, looks good in paper and it will happen, but lets not ump ahead of the physics.

Assume you want to put 100 kWh into a battery. For charging in 1h, the power supply needs 100kW per charging location. If we are talking a very super market car paces could be up to 100. So 10 MW supply where as a large Supermarket draws around 1 - 2 MW.

Now you want to charge those 100 cars in 15 min, now your power supply to the car park is 40 MW, 10 min = 60 MW.

If you are talking a large suburban shopping mall with 1000's of car spots and you are promising 60min full recharge times, the shopping mall will need a power supply akin to a small aluminium smelter.

Yes, shopping centres will have destination chargers and yes they may offer this power for free or discounted, just like many retail, restaurant etc. But it will be destination charging rates only, which is typically 5 - 10kW and the rate of charge will depend on the total number of cars under charge at once.

As for providing fast chargers free. No, there is so much money involved in the required infrastructure, no. Maybe discount rates, also would you want a high cost supercharger sitting there for 1-2 h waiting for the owner to come back.  It will have a charge fee.

An EV on a 7kW charger over say 3 hr of mall time gets 21 kW or around 65 - 80 km of range.

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