NSW Gov funding for services post-Bankstown Metro Opening

 
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/the-1-billion-plan-to-increase-sydney-s-peakhour-train-capacity

Budget announcement and some detail about the plans that will happen once the metro conversion of Bankstown line opens. Looks like a massive boost for SW passengers and a bit of an increase for far south. A short mention of ATP, and even more rolling stock purchase as well.

Sponsored advertisement

  scott4570 Chief Train Controller

In respect to the article, Andrew Constance made the following statement:-
“Moving Bankstown Line services to the new standalone metro system removes an existing bottleneck and frees up capacity to deliver more services on other lines where it’s needed,” he said.

Given that some years ago, they untangled the Network, where is the bottleneck that currently exists ?
  Totoro Locomotive Fireman

@scott4570

The bottleneck is the T3 line itself, which merged into the city circle thus clashing with the other circle lines like T2, etc. The Metro will fix the bottleneck and means former T3 trains can be re-routed onto those other lines. It makes perfect sense too. Smile

Agree this is not really “news” as we’ve all known this was happening for years. But it’s good to see the project progressing and get the funding it needs ($1B is nothing to sniff at). The press is good too.

Note: As a T9 commuter this sadly doesn’t benefit me (as far as I know). I live in hope we will see similar upgrades as the Metro West gets closer to fruition.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
In respect to the article, Andrew Constance made the following statement:-
“Moving Bankstown Line services to the new standalone metro system removes an existing bottleneck and frees up capacity to deliver more services on other lines where it’s needed,” he said.

Given that some years ago, they untangled the Network, where is the bottleneck that currently exists ?
scott4570
The network has not been fully "untangled", it has just had the the number of "tangles" reduced as funds and demand required at the time. There is certainly alot more that needs to be done, much of it will simply be done over time as further capacity is needed. The NW to SW Metro will provide a significant boost to reducing "tangles" but has also added some.

A few examples of future work required.
- Mortdale to Sutherland
- Homebush to Granville junction.
- Mixing of Inner West with SW services
etc
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

@scott4570

The bottleneck is the T3 line itself, which merged into the city circle thus clashing with the other circle lines like T2, etc. The Metro will fix the bottleneck and means former T3 trains can be re-routed onto those other lines. It makes perfect sense too. Smile

Agree this is not really “news” as we’ve all known this was happening for years. But it’s good to see the project progressing and get the funding it needs ($1B is nothing to sniff at). The press is good too.

Note: As a T9 commuter this sadly doesn’t benefit me (as far as I know). I live in hope we will see similar upgrades as the Metro West gets closer to fruition.
Totoro

The T3 isn't really a bottle neck for the city circle as all it is doing is removing 4 trains each side of the circle that filled in these spots perfectly because of the flyover at central. The T8 can take 4 of those services but the T2 is going to be a tight fit unless everything becomes an all stops service. I suppose they could also redirect the locals on to the former T3 track pair and the subs on to the T2 track pair to allow separation of express services from granville and even some T9 on to the citycircle.

The bottleneck it will help with is separating southern highlands and south coast services from the T4 between hustville, wolli creek and eveleigh. Apparently a new set of crossovers will allow these trains to run in to the dive at eveleigh / redfern.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
The T3 isn't really a bottle neck for the city circle as all it is doing is removing 4 trains each side of the circle that filled in these spots perfectly because of the flyover at central. The T8 can take 4 of those services but the T2 is going to be a tight fit unless everything becomes an all stops service. I suppose they could also redirect the locals on to the former T3 track pair and the subs on to the T2 track pair to allow separation of express services from granville and even some T9 on to the citycircle.
simstrain


I hope to god you’re not just thinking they’re going to add more trains to the existing timetable and go “That’ll do”.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No that isn't what I'm thinking. My thinking is that it is going to be difficult to just add those 8 services any provide and sort of express service unless they somehow manage to sort out T2 services. Which is extremely unlikely and so my thinking is that it won't really add any services by removing the T3.
  Yo.Yo Beginner

Transport for NSW release on the 27th - cannot see that this has been posted previously - Link

More Trains, More Services

Reviewed 27 Feb 2021

The More Trains, More Services program will simplify and modernise the rail network creating high capacity, turn up and go services for many customers. It means customers can expect more frequent train services, with less wait times, less crowding on a simpler and more reliable network.

More than $5.3 billion is being invested in the program, which has already delivered 24 new Waratah Series 2 trains and more than 1700 additional weekly services since 2017.

Key benefits:

  • More services for the T8 Airport Line, including an 80 per cent increase at Airport stations
  • A 30 per cent increase in peak services on the T4 Illawarra Line, with extra services from Cronulla, Waterfall and Hurstville
  • More services on the T2 Inner West Line, with an extra four services in the peak
  • Moreservices on the South Coast Line, meaning a service every 15 minutes in the peak and every 30 minutes in the off peak between Wollongong and the Sydney CBD
  • New trains are also being delivered as part of the program including 42 additional New Intercity Fleet carriages and 17 extra Waratah Series 2 trains.
TfNSW

Click on the downloadable fact sheet with image breakdown of the network changes - Link
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'm not sure how that is going to work Yo Yo. How did they manage to add 8 services to the T8 but only 4 to the T2. Then what is happening to 4 of those T8 services if Revesby and Campbelltown are only getting an extra 2 services. Are they terminating 4 services at Kinsgrove or sending them to Leppington? Are they going to reintroduce the Ashfield terminators and how are they going to handle all this extra traffic between Strathfield and Redfern?

So many questions to be answered with not enough data at the moment.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I'm not sure how that is going to work Yo Yo. How did they manage to add 8 services to the T8 but only 4 to the T2. Then what is happening to 4 of those T8 services if Revesby and Campbelltown are only getting an extra 2 services. Are they terminating 4 services at Kinsgrove or sending them to Leppington? Are they going to reintroduce the Ashfield terminators and how are they going to handle all this extra traffic between Strathfield and Redfern?

So many questions to be answered with not enough data at the moment.
simstrain

Here is my take on it.

Liverpool via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)
Liverpool via Regents Park: Currently 0, New 4.  (+4)
(Presumably via Regents Park, as they would be boasting of more services west of Lidcdombe otherwise, not just east of Lidcombe)


Liverpool via Bankstown (then Museum): Currently 2: New 0  (-2)

Campbelltown via Sydenham: Currently 4, New 0  (-4)
Campbelltown/Reveseby via Airport: Currently 10, New 18  (+8)
Two new services ex Cambo, 2 new services Ex Revesby, 4 services diverted from Syd to Airport.  

Bankstown Line:
Lidcombe via bankstown & Sydenham: Currently 4, New 0.  (-4)
Sydenham via Sydenham (WTF, didn't realise these existed) (then Museum): Currently 4, New 0 (-8)



Overall 10 CC slots are freed up.  8 Bankstown(/Sydenham) and 2 from the Inner West.  What is going to happen with them?

Lets looks at T4.
2 New South coast services in peak, 2 new Cronulla Services and 2 new ex Hurstville services.
At Wolli Creek: Currently: 18, New 24.  WTF ???

I think the way to run this timetable is either 4 (half) ex Hurstville services via the CC, or *all* ex Hurstville services via the CC.  With the latter option, CC would drop from 20tph to 18tph, and the ESR from 18tph to 16tph.  All good things for future growth and timetable reliability.

There you go, my hypothesis is: Illawarra Locals get moved to Sector 2.
  grog Train Controller

Nah, the new numbers are 18tph T2 and 18tph T8. Perfectly balanced. No need to mess it up with T4 locals.

The new crossovers north of Erskineville mean that the South Coast services will run on the locals and skip Wolli Creek, meaning 20tph T4 will run from Wolli Creek to BJ, plus 4tph South Coast on the old Bankstown pair that skip Wolli Creek and use the new crossovers to go to Sydney Terminal.

Simple.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


Here is my take on it.

Liverpool via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)
Liverpool via Regents Park: Currently 0, New 4.  (+4)
(Presumably via Regents Park, as they would be boasting of more services west of Lidcdombe otherwise, not just east of Lidcombe)
djf01

Good luck trying to squeeze in the 4 via regents park services here. I'm not talking about around the circle. I'm talking about between Redfern and Lidcombe. Multiple stopping patterns have this maxed out. There ain't no way they are getting 18 trains along the T2 unless all T2 trains are made all stoppers.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sydenham via Sydenham (WTF, didn't realise these existed) (then Museum): Currently 4, New 0 (-8)
djf01

They don't exist. That is just a timetable discrepancy you are seeing and those 4 trains are just the existing 4 lidcombe via bankstown services. It is also possible you are seeing a bus replacement service and also how to you come to the conclusion of -8 when there was supposedly 4 and then 0. Re do you math as these services do not exist.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Sydenham via Sydenham (WTF, didn't realise these existed) (then Museum): Currently 4, New 0 (-8)

They don't exist. That is just a timetable discrepancy you are seeing and those 4 trains are just the existing 4 lidcombe via bankstown services. It is also possible you are seeing a bus replacement service and also how to you come to the conclusion of -8 when there was supposedly 4 and then 0. Re do you math as these services do not exist.

EDIT: DOH !!!  

I just figured it out: these are ex Cambos services.  Sorry.  In my own defence, they are depicted on the timetable as starting at Sydenham.

https://i.imgur.com/lhJHsgg.png

The -8 is cumulative (but wrong)
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Sydenham via Sydenham (WTF, didn't realise these existed) (then Museum): Currently 4, New 0 (-8)

They don't exist. That is just a timetable discrepancy you are seeing and those 4 trains are just the existing 4 lidcombe via bankstown services. It is also possible you are seeing a bus replacement service and also how to you come to the conclusion of -8 when there was supposedly 4 and then 0. Re do you math as these services do not exist.

They are in the timetable.  Go check.  It surprised me too.

https://i.imgur.com/lhJHsgg.png
djf01

  djf01 Chief Commissioner

OK, you guys have forced me to do way more research than I wanted, but this is the current AM peak UP timetable for the CC.  There are 19/20 trains per hour on the Eastern, and 20/20 on the western.  The unused slot is at 7:59 (@Central), so it's hard to pick a true "peak" hour, the interleave seems to change mid way through the morning rush.  I've used 7:30 to 8:30 arrivals at Central.

Eastern CC (Arrivals at Central)

7:32  Campbelltown via Sydenham (6:37)
7:35  Revesby (6:58)
7:38  Liverpool via Bankstown
7:41  Campbelltown (6:43)
7:44  Liverpool via Bankstown
7:47  Campbelltown via Sydenham (6:52)
7:50  Revesby (7:13)
7:53  Lidcombe via Bankstown (7:04)
7:56  Campbelltown (6:58)
7:59  UNUSED
8:02  Campbelltown via Sydenham (7:07)
8:05  Revesby (7:28)
8:08  Liverpool via Bankstown (7:14)
8:11  Campbelltown (7:13)
8:14  Campbelltown (7:18)
8:17  Campbelltown via Sydenham (7:22)
8:20  Revesby (7:43)
8:23  Lidcombe via Bankstown (7:33)
8:26  Campbelltown (7:28)
8:29  Campbelltown (7:33)

8:32  Campbelltown via Sydenham (7:37)

The six bolded slots will be available post metro, 4 are earmarked for 2 more Cambo and 2 more Revesby services.

Western Side:

7:30 Parramatta (6:45)
7:33 Leppington (6:14)
7:36 Lidcombe via Bankstown
7:39 Parramatta (6:57)
7:42 Leppington
7:45 Liverpool via Bankstown (6:51)
7:48 Ashfield (7:30)
7:51 Leppington (6:35)
7:54 Parramatta (7:12)
7:57 Liverpool via Bankstown (7:04)
8:00 Leppington (6:41)
8:06 Lidcombe via Bankstown
8:09 Parramatta (7:27)
8:12 Leppington (6:54)
8:15 Liverpool via Bankstown (7:21)
8:18 Ashfield (8:00)
8:21 Leppington (7:02)
8:24 Parramatta (7:42)
8:27 Liverpool via Bankstown (7:34)

8:30 Leppington

What I envisaged might work is:

Eastern:

Cambo
Revesby
Cambo
Revesby/Cambo Express (Alternate)
Hurstville

Western:

Leppington
Liverpool via Regents Park
Leppington
Parramatta
Hurstville

Lidcombe - Ashfield goes from 12tph currently, to 16tph (as suggested).

The slots feed up on the CC by the metro are exactly the number needed to operate Hurstville as the interleaving branch on the CC, as the Bankstown line does now.

That said, I think @grog is right: 4 extra suburbans on Sector 1, 2 extra interurbans and 2 switched from the ESR to the Sydney terminal, 20tph on the ESR, 18tph on both arms of the CC.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Those trains are probably the ones that come from the T8. I bet you will find they align up with the t8 via sydenham trains. It is an idiocratic wierdness to do with how they write the timetable.

EDIT: I checked on tripview and my theory is proven correct. Those sydenham trains are the city via sydenham trains from the T8.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Those trains are probably the ones that come from the T8. I bet you will find they align up with the t8 via sydenham trains. It is an idiocratic wierdness to do with how they write the timetable.

EDIT: I checked on tripview and my theory is proven correct. Those sydenham trains are the city via sydenham trains from the T8.
simstrain
Yep.

Other timetables usually have in bold at the top where the originated from in not part of the timetable, but not the T4 for some reason.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Now DJF this is how it actually is and remember that when you have multiple stopping patterns you will not be able to get 20 trains per hours. With timing of all stops and semi express the most you can get is about 14 trains an hour on the T2 inner west.

T3
Liverpool, City via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)
Lidcombe, City via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)


T2
Leppington, City via Granville limited stop: Currently 8, New 8 (0)
Homebush and Parramatta all to city Currently 4, New 4 (0)
Liverpool, city via Regents Park: Currently 0, New 2.  (+2)

T8
Campbelltown via Sydenham: Currently 4, New 0  (-4)
Campbelltown/Reveseby via Airport: Currently 10, New 14  (+4)


A total of 14 trains an hour each way.

To get 18 to 20 trains around the circle some T2 services are going to have to be diverted on to the suburbans between homebush and strathfield which will then affect T1, T9 and intercity services. There are 14 T1 services and 8 T9 services and I think 8 intercity services.

Some fiddling of the tracks at eveleigh might help this situation but it is getting very tight because of the frequency lost due to multiple stopping patterns in this section of the network.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Now DJF this is how it actually is and remember that when you have multiple stopping patterns you will not be able to get 20 trains per hours. ...
simstrain

I can't speak for what it actually is, I don't train spot at Central in the AM peak, I can only presume they follow the published timetable.
Some corrections ...



T3
Liverpool, City via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)
Lidcombe, City via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)
Liverpool, City via Bankstown (Then Museum): Currently 3*, New: 0   (-3)


T2
Leppington, City via Granville limited stop: Currently 8, New 8 (0)
Homebush and Parramatta all to city Currently 4, New 4 (0)
Liverpool, city via Regents Park: Currently 0, New 2.  (+2)
Liverpool, city via Regents Park: Currently 0, New 4.  (+4)
Ashfield, City Currently 2, New: ?  (It would make sense to cut this, leaving a timetable holes for Summer Hill, Lewisham, Petersham, Stanmore, Newtown to be serviced by the other patterns.)


T8
Campbelltown via Sydenham: Currently 4, New 0  (-4)
Campbelltown/Reveseby via Airport: Currently 10, New 14
Campbelltown/Reveseby via Airport: Currently 10, New 18  (+8)


A total of 14 trains an hour each way.
No, it's 39 both ways, near enough to 20 each way.

To get 18 to 20 trains around the circle some T2 services are going to have to be diverted on to the suburbans between homebush and strathfield which will then affect T1, T9 and intercity services. There are 14 T1 services and 8 T9 services and I think 8 intercity services.

Some fiddling of the tracks at eveleigh might help this situation but it is getting very tight because of the frequency lost due to multiple stopping patterns in this section of the network.[/quote]
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Now DJF this is how it actually is and remember that when you have multiple stopping patterns you will not be able to get 20 trains per hours. With timing of all stops and semi express the most you can get is about 14 trains an hour on the T2 inner west.

T3
Liverpool, City via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)
Lidcombe, City via Bankstown (then Town Hall): Currently 4, New: 0  (-4)


T2
Leppington, City via Granville limited stop: Currently 8, New 8 (0)
Homebush and Parramatta all to city Currently 4, New 4 (0)
Liverpool, city via Regents Park: Currently 0, New 2.  (+2)

T8
Campbelltown via Sydenham: Currently 4, New 0  (-4)
Campbelltown/Reveseby via Airport: Currently 10, New 14  (+4)


A total of 14 trains an hour each way.

To get 18 to 20 trains around the circle some T2 services are going to have to be diverted on to the suburbans between homebush and strathfield which will then affect T1, T9 and intercity services. There are 14 T1 services and 8 T9 services and I think 8 intercity services.

Some fiddling of the tracks at eveleigh might help this situation but it is getting very tight because of the frequency lost due to multiple stopping patterns in this section of the network.
simstrain
Based on the new timetable which came into effect last Sunday and measured arriving at Central between 08:00 and 09:00, this is the current situation:-

T3
Liverpool via Bankstown to Town Hall - 4
Liverpool via Bankstown to Museum - 2
Lidcombe via Bankstown to Town Hall - 2
Lidcombe via Bankstown to Museum - 2

Total T3 to City Circle - 10 (6 Town Hall + 4 Museum)

T2
Leppington - 8
Parramatta - 4
Ashfield - 2

Total T2 to City Circle - 14 (Town Hall)

T8
Macarthur/Campbelltown via Sydenham to Museum - 4
Macarthur/Campbelltown via Airport to Museum - 5
Revesby via Airport to Museum - 5

Total T8 to City Circle - 14 (4 via Sydenham + 10 via Airport)

City Circle
East via Museum - 18
West via Town Hall - 20

The conversion of the Bankstown Line to metro will free up 10 paths on the CC (4 to Museum and 6 to Town Hall) with another 2 spare paths available to Museum.

Under the proposed new operational pattern after the Bankstown Line removal from the Sydney Trains network, the services for T2, T4 and T8 will be as follows:-

T2
4 additional services at key stations, which suggests they will be semi-express and probably the reinstated Liverpool via Regents Park services.  That would bring T2 up to 18tph, which seems a bit of a stretch with the mixed stopping pattern, unless they cancel the Ashfield peak hour services bringing it back to 16tph.  It would seem more likely as an all stops pattern, but the proposed service pattern is still to be confirmed.  There's no prospect of diverting any T2 semi-express services to the Suburban tracks as they are already maxed out at 20tph with T1 and T9 services.  4 T9 services in the peak are already forced to use the Main tracks to Sydney Terminal because of the lack of paths on the Suburban.

T4
2 additional services are proposed from Cronulla to Bondi Junction, 1 from Waterfall and 2 from Hurstville. There will be 4 South Coast Intercity services which will be diverted to Sydney Terminal via the new crossover from the Local to the Main to access the Dive at Erskineville and the 1 Intercity Thirroul service will continue to Bondi Junction, bringing T4 up to 19tph from the current 15tph (excluding the 3 Intercity services to be diverted to Sydney Terminal).  Although it hasn't been confirmed, as there will no longer be a Bankstown Line service or T8 via Sydenham, I expect that T4 will become an all stations service from Wolli Creek to Bondi Junction, in addition to the Hurstville to Bondi Junction service.

T8
An 80% increase is proposed on the Airport Line, bringing it up from 10tph to 18tph.  2 additional services are proposed from
Campbelltown and 2 from Revesby.  It is obvious that the current 4 peak hour services via Sydenham will be diverted to the Airport Line to achieve 18tph.  That means that there will be no suburban services running on the Illawarra Local from Wolli Creek Junction to Central and there will only be the limited number of South Coast Intercity and South Regional services running on this section of track as far as the Illawarra Dive to Sydney Terminal, which seems such a waste when it could be used for additional T8 services to supplement those via the Airport Line.  

As grog pointed out, the purported 18tph on the City Circle for T2 via Town Hall, assuming it's feasible, will balance the same frequency on T8 via Museum, which on the face of it makes complete sense.  However, I would suggest that this could be an interim measure until the ATP/ATO digital upgrade is completed, which would enable an increase from 40 up to 48tph on the City Circle, allowing for a redistribution of increased services via the flying junctions across the City Circle, including T8 via Sydenham.
  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
They can still skip stops in the Inner West, but there would be lesser to no time advantage. Just for crowd management.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

None of that is going to happen Transtopic. Basic math will tell you that if you have 18-20 trains an hour that you have a 3-3.3 minute path and any limited stop services will get stuck behind the all stops and what you will end up with is pretty much an all stopper that doesn't stop at all stops.

As for what services to get rid of it is the Parramatta services that should go and it should be a 4 to ashfield, 4 to Regents Park and 8 to via Granville. If the government wants us on the T2 to change trains to get on a faster service then the T1 should be forced to change to get on a slower T2 service instead of giving Parramatta it's own T2 service.

The T8 we know can handle the extra 8 trains but the T2 can only really do so if every service becomes an all stop service.

24TPH is not going to happen with ATP/ATO because again your problem is the platform issues at Central and Town Hall, the dwell times at the stations and the speed of the double deck trains. It isn't a metro with multiple doors and platform screen doors to assist alighting and boarding. As soon as you have a disabled person there goes your on time running and any chance of any more then 20 trains an hour.

This is why I think the metro should be extended along the existing T3 to Cabramatta. The all stops metro is 10 minutes faster to Bankstown then the equivalent ST service. It will require a little bit of work at the triangle but I think it will be cheaper to do this then to build a completly new alignment to Liverpool on suspect ground.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

This is why I think the metro should be extended along the existing T3 to Cabramatta. The all stops metro is 10 minutes faster to Bankstown then the equivalent ST service. It will require a little bit of work at the triangle but I think it will be cheaper to do this then to build a completly new alignment to Liverpool on suspect ground.
simstrain
Which Triangle?

The very short section of common track shared with freight under Auburn Road, three options.
1) Restrict freight movements to periods when Metro not in service, undesirable for freight.

2) Reduce Metro to single, southern track for 200m or so, cheap and easy.

3) Rebuild Auburn Road bridge and allow three tracks. Most expensive

The Cabramatta junction is the big ticket item, there is no room for a surface terminus station.

Originally I thought not a bad idea, however no, Bankstown direct to Liverpool which is a destination in itself and why trains terminate there now is I think the better option. The ground options may not be simple, but no worse than many other Metro's, Dubai's for example is a 90% viaduct on sand with tunnels in sand.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


...
As grog pointed out, the purported 18tph on the City Circle for T2 via Town Hall, assuming it's feasible, will balance the same frequency on T8 via Museum, which on the face of it makes complete sense.  However, I would suggest that this could be an interim measure until the ATP/ATO digital upgrade is completed, which would enable an increase from 40 up to 48tph on the City Circle, allowing for a redistribution of increased services via the flying junctions across the City Circle, including T8 via Sydenham.
Transtopic

The issue is the future of the flying junctions and the interleave during peak.  ATM T4 services alternate which way around the CC they go.  I had anticipated T8/Campbelltown services could do this post metro.  But it seems they are going to abandon it altogether.  The advantage is simplicity and timetable reliability.  The disadvantage is longer runs times Strathfield to Redfern, to service all those tightly spaced stations.  Given the SRA's (what are they called now?) historical preference no-one should be surprised they are going for slower but more reliable.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: