NSW Gov funding for services post-Bankstown Metro Opening

 
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Wrong. 8 car trains will also be run according to D set car markers placed up the mountains line.
nswtrains
The initial D-set order was for 512 cars, comprising 77x4 car sets and 34x6 car sets.  That was subsequently increased by another 42 cars to 554 with 21 of the 4 car sets being increased to 6 car sets, reducing the number of 4 car sets to 56 and bringing the 6 car sets up to 55, to form 55x10 car sets.  There is 1 spare 4 car set.  It therefore appears that only 10 car sets will run in the peak periods, with 4 or 6 cars in the off-peak.

The markers you refer to may be for 8 car H-sets, which are now able to run through from Springwood to Lithgow.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What's the point of closing the turnbacks.  A very tiny savings of maintenence?   Better to have them and use them for weekend maintenence or when operational problems requires them.
Agreed, especially with Chatswood 2&3 a metro line these passthroughs (not turnbacks) at Lindfield and Gordon will be quite handy to have.
simstrain
Why? Chatswood was reduced to two platforms in the 90's and basically operated this way since. Only opened to four for ECRL.

Lindfield is now being used because the Metro is limited to Chatswood, in the near future this limitation won't be there.

Why do you need both?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Why? Chatswood was reduced to two platforms in the 90's and basically operated this way since. Only opened to four for ECRL.

Lindfield is now being used because the Metro is limited to Chatswood, in the near future this limitation won't be there.

Why do you need both?
RTT_Rules

Because they aren't just a turnback and Chatswood can't turn back trains and so yeah it still will be needed. Maybe traffic on the north shore might go down but you still need to send all those T1 trains from the west somewhere and they all can't end up at hornsby at once. If the traffic does go down then sending more gosford and wyong services that way isn't such a bad idea especially if your tunnel from st leonard to north sydney gets built.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Why? Chatswood was reduced to two platforms in the 90's and basically operated this way since. Only opened to four for ECRL.

Lindfield is now being used because the Metro is limited to Chatswood, in the near future this limitation won't be there.

Why do you need both?

Because they aren't just a turnback and Chatswood can't turn back trains and so yeah it still will be needed. Maybe traffic on the north shore might go down but you still need to send all those T1 trains from the west somewhere and they all can't end up at hornsby at once. If the traffic does go down then sending more gosford and wyong services that way isn't such a bad idea especially if your tunnel from st leonard to north sydney gets built.
simstrain

Why do you need to turn back trains once Metro is up and running?

And if you are going to turn back, why do you need TWO 3km apart!
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Why? Chatswood was reduced to two platforms in the 90's and basically operated this way since. Only opened to four for ECRL.

Lindfield is now being used because the Metro is limited to Chatswood, in the near future this limitation won't be there.

Why do you need both?

Because they aren't just a turnback and Chatswood can't turn back trains and so yeah it still will be needed. Maybe traffic on the north shore might go down but you still need to send all those T1 trains from the west somewhere and they all can't end up at hornsby at once. If the traffic does go down then sending more gosford and wyong services that way isn't such a bad idea especially if your tunnel from st leonard to north sydney gets built.

Why do you need to turn back trains once Metro is up and running?

And if you are going to turn back, why do you need TWO 3km apart!
RTT_Rules
I'm inclined to agree with you on that point, although it would still be worthwhile retaining the Lindfield turnback for emergency and weekend maintenance shutdowns as suggested by tazzer96, as it's already there and would only require minimal maintenance.  It's not unlike the situation on the Northern Line, where for operational reasons, some trains are turned around at Eastwood instead of Epping in the shoulder afternoon peak although they are adjoining stations.

I could be wrong, but to the best of my recollection, in the pre-metro period on the North Shore Line, there were 18tph from Chatswood to the CBD.  It think it consisted of 2tph ex-Gosford, 4tph ex-Berowra, 4tph ex-Hornsby, 4tph ex-Gordon and 4tph ex-Hornsby via Macquarie Park on the ECRL.  Excluding the Gosford Intercity and ECRL services, that's effectively a maximum of 12tph suburban services on the NSL.  It was subsequently increased to 20tph including the Intercity services when the metro opened, which terminated at Chatswood.

In the post-metro period after its extension to the CBD, there won't be the same demand on the Lower NSL from Chatswood to North Sydney.  Regardless of whether CC Intercity services continue on the NSL, there will certainly be a need for increased suburban services on the NSL in the longer term.  My estimation would be up to 24tph after the ATP/ATO upgrade, with 6tph ex-Berowra, 6tph ex-Hornsby, 6tph ex-Gordon and 6tph ex-St Leonards or North Sydney.

I prefer Gordon over Lindfield for regular services as it is a larger centre and also draws patronage from West Pymble and St Ives on the A3 road corridor.  I prefer St Leonards over North Sydney as it is further up the line and would also attract extra contra-peak patronage in addition to North Sydney.

I like your idea of closing the Lavender Bay stabling yards and relocating them to St Leonards in conjunction with a new turnback.  It could be constructed even without the triplication/quadruplication which you suggested, which I'm still not convinced is necessary.  Preferably, the turnback and stabling should be constructed north of St Leonards Station between the realigned Up and Down Shore tracks through the outer platforms to avoid crossing conflicts for terminating trains.

To address simtrain's concerns about Western Line services terminating, St Leonards would be the sweet spot, rather than North Sydney or further up the line.  It's logical for T9 Northern Line services to form its own sector in tandem with T1 from Hornsby via Strathfield and the CBD to Berowra.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I'm inclined to agree with you on that point, although it would still be worthwhile retaining the Lindfield turnback for emergency and weekend maintenance shutdowns as suggested by tazzer96, as it's already there and would only require minimal maintenance.  It's not unlike the situation on the Northern Line, where for operational reasons, some trains are turned around at Eastwood instead of Epping in the shoulder afternoon peak although they are adjoining stations.

I could be wrong, but to the best of my recollection, in the pre-metro period on the North Shore Line, there were 18tph from Chatswood to the CBD.  It think it consisted of 2tph ex-Gosford, 4tph ex-Berowra, 4tph ex-Hornsby, 4tph ex-Gordon and 4tph ex-Hornsby via Macquarie Park on the ECRL.  Excluding the Gosford Intercity and ECRL services, that's effectively a maximum of 12tph suburban services on the NSL.  It was subsequently increased to 20tph including the Intercity services when the metro opened, which terminated at Chatswood.

In the post-metro period after its extension to the CBD, there won't be the same demand on the Lower NSL from Chatswood to North Sydney.  Regardless of whether CC Intercity services continue on the NSL, there will certainly be a need for increased suburban services on the NSL in the longer term.  My estimation would be up to 24tph after the ATP/ATO upgrade, with 6tph ex-Berowra, 6tph ex-Hornsby, 6tph ex-Gordon and 6tph ex-St Leonards or North Sydney.

I prefer Gordon over Lindfield for regular services as it is a larger centre and also draws patronage from West Pymble and St Ives on the A3 road corridor.  I prefer St Leonards over North Sydney as it is further up the line and would also attract extra contra-peak patronage in addition to North Sydney.

I like your idea of closing the Lavender Bay stabling yards and relocating them to St Leonards in conjunction with a new turnback.  It could be constructed even without the triplication/quadruplication which you suggested, which I'm still not convinced is necessary.  Preferably, the turnback and stabling should be constructed north of St Leonards Station between the realigned Up and Down Shore tracks through the outer platforms to avoid crossing conflicts for terminating trains.

To address simtrain's concerns about Western Line services terminating, St Leonards would be the sweet spot, rather than North Sydney or further up the line.  It's logical for T9 Northern Line services to form its own sector in tandem with T1 from Hornsby via Strathfield and the CBD to Berowra.
Transtopic

I think the purpose of the pre Metro Gordon starters was simply to same in train sets running to Hornsby and back and by removing a train movement you open up an express slot.


Agree pots Metro Lindifield is not required, it will no doubt be retained for now like it was before with maybe one movement a day simply to keep the tracks shinny and the turnback open. At some point, like Chatswood platform #1 turnback of old, they will bite the bullet and remove it as it also enables the current Platform #1 to be closed and save cost of upkeep.

Lavender Bay line yards is a Dead Man walking, I think we all know that its just a matter of time before the govt makes a move. Currently the focus is on the Metro. Once this is done, next. Personally I would like to see it partly converted to a linera community garden, bike/walking track but also retain the line with a heritage tram or something. I cannot see in viable need to operate PT on the corridor.

ironically the corridor south of Sth Leonards was built as a quad. The old OH structures used to span all four track ROW's. However, why on earth would you quad the cities most curvaous corridor when a tunnel saves noise, time and maintenance. They should fence off the the most north/west side for a community bike track. Potentially connect St Lenard's to Lavender Bay with some street connections in between where the ROW is not available.

The Quad purpose is to save time, noise in the local area (and some money) and also enables both Central Coast and Berowa trains to by-pass all stoppers on a more congested timetable.  

Note on the money saved also includes number of sets as now any trains crossing the tunnel will return back to the city 10-12min faster. This saves sets and crews which equals money. I'd like to see the costs on this.  One of Sydney's biggest challenges is getting more than 2 peak hour runs from their trains.

Running Western Services to St Leonards, while just one more stop is a significant stop and interchange. This as well as the Metro would reduce demand overall for the NSL and this may actually eliminate the need for terminators to Gordon as the through services can manage all the traffic post metro. I don't see any need to extend these terminators further north.

Agree Hornsby to St Leonards (and in peak from Gordon) via Epping and Waverton could be an island T9.

Hornsby/Berowa to Western line via the tunnel.



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  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Wrong. 8 car trains will also be run according to D set car markers placed up the mountains line.
The initial D-set order was for 512 cars, comprising 77x4 car sets and 34x6 car sets.  That was subsequently increased by another 42 cars to 554 with 21 of the 4 car sets being increased to 6 car sets, reducing the number of 4 car sets to 56 and bringing the 6 car sets up to 55, to form 55x10 car sets.  There is 1 spare 4 car set.  It therefore appears that only 10 car sets will run in the peak periods, with 4 or 6 cars in the off-peak.

The markers you refer to may be for 8 car H-sets, which are now able to run through from Springwood to Lithgow.
Transtopic
H sets will be transferred to suburban running post removal of toilets and will not be running to Lithgow. I took a photo of the D set markers at Linden down platform today and they are: 4,6,8,10. Can't be bothered uploading them but I will confirm what D sets will run when I inspect a 10 car set at Mt Victoria on Saturday. Worthwhile as they are going to pay me an hours pay to do so.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Wrong. 8 car trains will also be run according to D set car markers placed up the mountains line.
The initial D-set order was for 512 cars, comprising 77x4 car sets and 34x6 car sets.  That was subsequently increased by another 42 cars to 554 with 21 of the 4 car sets being increased to 6 car sets, reducing the number of 4 car sets to 56 and bringing the 6 car sets up to 55, to form 55x10 car sets.  There is 1 spare 4 car set.  It therefore appears that only 10 car sets will run in the peak periods, with 4 or 6 cars in the off-peak.

The markers you refer to may be for 8 car H-sets, which are now able to run through from Springwood to Lithgow.
H sets will be transferred to suburban running post removal of toilets and will not be running to Lithgow. I took a photo of the D set markers at Linden down platform today and they are: 4,6,8,10. Can't be bothered uploading them but I will confirm what D sets will run when I inspect a 10 car set at Mt Victoria on Saturday. Worthwhile as they are going to pay me an hours pay to do so.
nswtrains
Well even if they don't plan to run 8 car sets, you wouldn't go out there and not peg the marker anyway.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The initial D-set order was for 512 cars, comprising 77x4 car sets and 34x6 car sets.  That was subsequently increased by another 42 cars to 554 with 21 of the 4 car sets being increased to 6 car sets, reducing the number of 4 car sets to 56 and bringing the 6 car sets up to 55, to form 55x10 car sets.  There is 1 spare 4 car set.  It therefore appears that only 10 car sets will run in the peak periods, with 4 or 6 cars in the off-peak.

The markers you refer to may be for 8 car H-sets, which are now able to run through from Springwood to Lithgow.
H sets will be transferred to suburban running post removal of toilets and will not be running to Lithgow.
nswtrains
I'm aware of that.  My remarks were more to do with the possibility of some H sets now being able to run through to Lithgow, if the need arises, before they are transferred to suburban duty.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Some thoughts on the turnbacks at Gordon and Lindfield:

The problem with those simple turnbacks is lack of capacity.  Realistically they can turn back 4tph at best.  A slight delay on the UP means a train on the DOWN can be completely blocked by a train in the turnback waiting for it's path.  

That can be dealt with by the timetables by intermeshing the UP and DOWN timetables around the confines of the turnback.  But intermeshing the timetables at Lyndfield *and* Gordon is problematic, because they 6+6=12 min apart.

IMHO, neither turnback is fit for purpose, they need either a second platform, or a siding to allow 2 trains in the turnback at once.

IMHO the most rational place for a turnback is at Chatswood.  Combined with Shane's tunnel, Nth Sydney - W-W- St Leonards-A-Chatswood could operate as a grade separated branch off the Shore.  But ... like so much of the metro - and unlike all the other infrastructure on the Shore built in the last 70 years - the DOWN road flyover of the metro portals has been constructed to preclude future duplication.  (My idea here is Quad Nth Sydney to Artarmon, triple/single track to a stub/dock 5th platform at Chatswood built south and east of the current HR UP road (platform 4 I believe).

Alternatively, a no platform turnback north of Chatswood and the metro/ECL portals, then duplicate the UP road to provide holding/buffer siding.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Some thoughts on the turnbacks at Gordon and Lindfield:

The problem with those simple turnbacks is lack of capacity.  Realistically they can turn back 4tph at best.  A slight delay on the UP means a train on the DOWN can be completely blocked by a train in the turnback waiting for it's path.  
djf01

For starters they aren't simple turnbacks. They are really more of a loop situation then a turnback since the tracks don't just end at gordon and lindfield but are through lines at both ends. They allow bypassing as well as turnbacks and removing them is a silly thing to do since you remove some flexibility with the network on this line.

In the situation you mention the train on the down can just be sent on to hornsby instead of in to the turnback/ middle platform and so there is no problem. There is no reason to remove these turnbacks / loops at all and post metro they can be extremely useful.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU

For starters they aren't simple turnbacks. They are really more of a loop situation then a turnback since the tracks don't just end at gordon and lindfield but are through lines at both ends.
simstrain


Gordon is a loop, Lindfield is not.

Please, for the love of god, check your facts first.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

For starters they aren't simple turnbacks. They are really more of a loop situation then a turnback since the tracks don't just end at gordon and lindfield but are through lines at both ends.

Gordon is a loop, Lindfield is not.

Please, for the love of god, check your facts first.
s3_gunzel
Gordon was actually made a loop about about 25 years ago so Plat 2 can be used to terminate trains from both directions for track MTCE as well as timetabling. Its not going anywhere. Lindfield is a legacy shunt neck that will more than likely be removed from the timetable post city Metro, or perhaps kept with just one daily movement to keep it in service, either way down graded.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

In the situation you mention the train on the down can just be sent on to hornsby instead of in to the turnback/ middle platform and so there is no problem. There is no reason to remove these turnbacks / loops at all and post metro they can be extremely useful.
simstrain
True, the problem being the set isn't available to fulfil it's UP run in the timetable, and is out of position for the rest of the day - well several hours anyway.  That sort of contingency can't be written into a timetable.  Hence, the limitations of the two turnbacks at Gordon and Lindfield.

That said, I fully agree with you, I see no point in removing them.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

True, the problem being the set isn't available to fulfil it's UP run in the timetable, and is out of position for the rest of the day - well several hours anyway.  That sort of contingency can't be written into a timetable.  Hence, the limitations of the two turnbacks at Gordon and Lindfield.

That said, I fully agree with you, I see no point in removing them.
djf01
If there is that much of a hold up that a train is locked as you mentioned then being out of position for the rest of the day is going to be the least of your issues. I would suspect there might be more problems happening. My mistake on assuming that lindfield was a loop but having said that I see no reason why it couldn't be changed in to a loop. If there were more loops on the NSL then sending extra CCN services down this route might not be such a bad idea.

I'm wouldn't shut any of these pieces of track down and metro isn't going to miraculously reduce the amount of services on the NSL because these services are intricately linked to T1 western and T9 northern line services. I think there are people on here way too far ahead of themselves.

If you terminate more T1 trains at North Sydney then the suggestion to close down lavender bay is untenable since there is nowhere else to store trains nearby for peak hour usage. Even if a new tunnel from North Sydney is built and you have the extra platforms at St Leonards that isn't enough to store all the trains for peak hour that currently side at lavender bay.

In fact I'm looking at where you could put extra loops in further up the line and Turramurra I think is one place. Warrawee and Wahroonga could have that third line and platform and this could help with moving peak direction CCN services on to the NSL.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

Lavender bay only has capacity for 6 trains.  This could easily be replaced by simply having more trains in off-peaks running services.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

Lavender bay only has capacity for 6 trains.  This could easily be replaced by simply having more trains in off-peaks running services.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Just to throw in my penny's worth, I still maintain that T1 should become a single all stations pattern from Berowra to Central after the ATP/ATO upgrade.  Ron Christie said as much, commenting that the few minutes saved in a skip/stop pattern was hardly worth it.  The signalling upgrade will significantly reduce journey times and without full quadruplication, which is unlikely, there's not a lot to be gained by having limited overtaking opportunities with isolated passing loops, which only further complicates operational procedures.  If this was converted to metro (unlikely) then it would be a single all stops pattern.  The signalling upgrade will enable the NSL to operate in a close to metro style service, albeit with DD trains.  This would also be dependent on the CC Intercity services being diverted to Central via the Northern Line.  I'm a great believer in the KISS principle.

Another option when the Northern Line is triplicated between Hornsby and Epping and quadruplicated between Epping and Strathfield, would be to redirect the Berowra services from Hornsby on the Northern Line via Strathfield, as they once were from Cowan.  The NSL could then become an all stations T1 service from Hornsby to the CBD.  

The T9 services from Berowra via Strathfield could adopt a semi-express service similar to the current peak hour service from Hornsby, stopping all stations to Eastwood, West Ryde, Rhodes, Strathfield, Burwood, Redfern, Central and continuing across the Harbour Bridge to the North Shore Line.  The amplified Northern Line is going to offer far more operational opportunities than a partly amplified North Shore Line with limited passing loops.

I like the idea suggested by Shane of relocating the Lavender Bay stabling yards to St Leonards, although I would prefer curve easing within the existing wide rail corridor between Waverton and St Leonards, rather than building a new tunnel on a straighter alignment which would be much more expensive.  The only turnbacks which would be required for T1 Western Line and T9 Northern Line services would be at St Leonards, Gordon and Hornsby, although Lindfield should be retained.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
True, the problem being the set isn't available to fulfil it's UP run in the timetable, and is out of position for the rest of the day - well several hours anyway.  That sort of contingency can't be written into a timetable.  Hence, the limitations of the two turnbacks at Gordon and Lindfield.

That said, I fully agree with you, I see no point in removing them.
If there is that much of a hold up that a train is locked as you mentioned then being out of position for the rest of the day is going to be the least of your issues. I would suspect there might be more problems happening. My mistake on assuming that lindfield was a loop but having said that I see no reason why it couldn't be changed in to a loop. If there were more loops on the NSL then sending extra CCN services down this route might not be such a bad idea.

I'm wouldn't shut any of these pieces of track down and metro isn't going to miraculously reduce the amount of services on the NSL because these services are intricately linked to T1 western and T9 northern line services. I think there are people on here way too far ahead of themselves.

If you terminate more T1 trains at North Sydney then the suggestion to close down lavender bay is untenable since there is nowhere else to store trains nearby for peak hour usage. Even if a new tunnel from North Sydney is built and you have the extra platforms at St Leonards that isn't enough to store all the trains for peak hour that currently side at lavender bay.

In fact I'm looking at where you could put extra loops in further up the line and Turramurra I think is one place. Warrawee and Wahroonga could have that third line and platform and this could help with moving peak direction CCN services on to the NSL.
simstrain
You terminate at Nth Sydney and return, you do not need to flood the NSL with empty trains to support T1 West and T9.

You will NEVER EVER get away with storing trains in the upper shore section of the line, those very wealthy NIBMY's will have you in court within a month, like they did for the F3 extension and forced the road to be sealed with bitumen after months of having the speed limit reduced to 80km/h when it was first open. The proposal for St Leonards is based on the fact that St Leonards is a commercial hub and the whole thing could easily be built over as the airspace above the railway would have a very high value.

Making Lindfield a loop has little vale being so close to Gordon.

The loops you need are 3-5km long, not a station length, the days of passing a train waiting at in a small loop are over.

If you were to build a long loop in the upper shore, no need for more platforms, just build it as a express line, not stops.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Just to throw in my penny's worth, I still maintain that T1 should become a single all stations pattern from Berowra to Central after the ATP/ATO upgrade.  Ron Christie said as much, commenting that the few minutes saved in a skip/stop pattern was hardly worth it.  The signalling upgrade will significantly reduce journey times and without full quadruplication, which is unlikely, there's not a lot to be gained by having limited overtaking opportunities with isolated passing loops, which only further complicates operational procedures.  If this was converted to metro (unlikely) then it would be a single all stops pattern.  The signalling upgrade will enable the NSL to operate in a close to metro style service, albeit with DD trains.  This would also be dependent on the CC Intercity services being diverted to Central via the Northern Line.  I'm a great believer in the KISS principle.

Another option when the Northern Line is triplicated between Hornsby and Epping and quadruplicated between Epping and Strathfield, would be to redirect the Berowra services from Hornsby on the Northern Line via Strathfield, as they once were from Cowan.  The NSL could then become an all stations T1 service from Hornsby to the CBD.  

The T9 services from Berowra via Strathfield could adopt a semi-express service similar to the current peak hour service from Hornsby, stopping all stations to Eastwood, West Ryde, Rhodes, Strathfield, Burwood, Redfern, Central and continuing across the Harbour Bridge to the North Shore Line.  The amplified Northern Line is going to offer far more operational opportunities than a partly amplified North Shore Line with limited passing loops.

I like the idea suggested by Shane of relocating the Lavender Bay stabling yards to St Leonards, although I would prefer curve easing within the existing wide rail corridor between Waverton and St Leonards, rather than building a new tunnel on a straighter alignment which would be much more expensive.  The only turnbacks which would be required for T1 Western Line and T9 Northern Line services would be at St Leonards, Gordon and Hornsby, although Lindfield should be retained.
Transtopic
Ex Berowra trains need to have limited express operation as its too long a trip.

Quad for sparks from Hornsby South via Epping is needed.

Berowra via shore is better than main as its faster even if all stop and trains needed to balance trains from west.

Curve easing should occur anyway, but tunnel saves 6min, curve easing would be less than 1min.


Signally upgrades don't speed up trains limited by track speed.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
Alrighty then, time to throw my hat into this discussion. Because literally my neighbourino is the NSL! So I think I should be listened to because these decisions your making could knock down my house!

It would be very difficult for additional tracks before North Sydney. Say at Turramurra... Where the old Goods Siding was, is now an important Bus Terminal. We got numerous lines that go through there. On the other side, there is a recently built park. And there are plans by the Council to redevelop the town square. Which is currently a big flat piece of concrete. Warrawee has Knox, and has too thin of space to the streets. Wahroonga has a few parks that have Heritage Listing buildings in.

The railway sidings at Milsons Point could be better used as a public walkway, more land for LPS (who I am affiliated with), and Heritage Rail Tours. These sidings could be easily spot just beside Waverton for at least 1 track. There is also room for numerous tracks at St Leonards. This may give even more sidings then there are now. But don't expect more tracks beyond St Leonards. There's just simply not enough space. The rest have been taken up.

This can help seperate the NSL/Northern Lines. And the Western Line. Western Line trains can start at the loosely used Platforms 2 and 3 at North Sydney. We can then close down the Cahill Expressway. Use the former tracks on the Eastern Side of the Bridge. And use the old Platforms 1 and 2 at Wynyard. This is currently a Car Park. Cahill Expressway would become a Predestrian Boulevard. Perfect for Picnics, Cycling, and Festivals above the Railway Corridor! New platforms 3 and 4 would be built at Pitt Street. Just next to the new platforms. New platforms would be built at Central Station. Below the Coach Station. There would be a new station at UOS. Just below Victoria Park. The tunnels would rejoin just before Stanmore. With additional reconfiguring between Stanmore and Strathfield. This would allow the seperation of the MNL, MWL, and OMSL lines.

If I want to go from the Upper North Shore to Central. The trip will go over 40 minutes by the schedule. This is due to unreasonable speed limits on the North Shore Line. Going Northbound from Pymble to Turramurra can get you over 80 km/h. The track was built in 2009. The track Citybound used to be the same speed on the old wooden sleepers. They put in concrete sleepers on 2016. It became just 65 km/h! And this is a straight track for almost 2km! This is way overdue for something to be done. When they do trackwork almost every night and during the weekend! I don't know how this has gotten unoticed! This is also due to you stopping at every single station. While Lindfield services get to go express! I think how it should work is for Berwora and Hornsby services to go all stations to Gordon. Then Chatswood, St Leonards, North Sydney, then all stations into the City. While services starting at Gordon/Lindfield do the all stations services.

Killara Station would have side platforms instead. This would allow top speeds between Gordon and Lindfield. Which is the longest straight path on the line.

There are plans for the conversion of the NSL (To Hornsby) and IWL (To Homebush) into Metro. These lines would merge into 1. This would happen in the early 2030's. Western and Northern line services would terminate at Sydney Terminal. (Link will be available ASAP)

More weekend services are desperately needed on the Upper North Shore due to overcrowding. Having 5-6 trains per hour compared to the current 4 would be perfect for stations like Turramurra and Waitara. Who are bursting at the scenes with recent development.

The Sydney Trains map doesn't accurately depicte how the services work in the NSL. Except during the AM Peak. Western Services otherwise don't tread past Gordon. Richmond Services terminate at Lindfield. And Penrith/Emu Plains services terminate at Gordon. Hornsby and Berwora services come from Hornsby via Strathfield. It used to be that 2tph would come from Berwora, 2 from Hornsby. Which would go to Penrith/Richmond. Emu Plains Services would start at Gordon. Hornsby via Pennant Hills would use the ECRL. What was originally gonna happen is that the line would start at Westmead. Go to Parramatta. Then new tunnels to connect at Camellia. Then use the Carlingford Line. Then use new tunnels to Epping. Use the ECRL. Then quadruplicaton between Chatswood and St Leonards. Then a second Harbour Tunnel into the City. Then proberbly using the Bankstown Line to free the bottleneck.

There is not much that can be done until 2024 sadly. In 2019, they did a ton of trackwork to allow trains every 3 minutes between Waverton and Hornsby. Originally, this was only every 10 minutes. This has caused a massive spike in trains on the line. Which means that the NSL has to carry more of the load for Sector 3. This will cause traffic jams in the meantime. More trains than normal are needed on the NSL for tens of thousands of school students.

People jumping onto the Metro will definitely happen at least in the Off Peak. This is because it can take over 20 minutes between Chatswood and the City on via St Leonards. While it'll only be just over 5 minutes from Chatswood into the City via Crows Nest! Google Maps will just direct them there unless if it's set to minimal transfers. This may be different during the peak, as already it's gotten quite overcrowded on the Metro!

The best opportunity to do works on the NSL will be in the mid to late 2020's. For these reasons. It's not the best time right now. But the future is bright.

Now I hopefully don't get an angry mob saying "Burn Ahead, BURN!", with a Tangara screeching "I was saying Boogoaheadoo." when I get back home.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Now I’ve collected myself… here we go.

Alrighty then, time to throw my hat into this discussion. Because literally my neighbourino is the NSL! So I think I should be listened to because these decisions your making could knock down my house!
AheadMatthewawsome

It’s a rail forum. Nothing said here will influence your living arrangements.

It would be very difficult for additional tracks before North Sydney. Say at Turramurra... Where the old Goods Siding was, is now an important Bus Terminal.
AheadMatthewawsome

No, it’s not - Turramurra does not have a bus terminal, it has a bus stop. Which can be moved. Don’t overstate things.

The railway sidings at Milsons Point could be better used as a public walkway, more land for LPS (who I am affiliated with), and Heritage Rail Tours.
AheadMatthewawsome

Let us ignore the self-serving nature of this part of your post entirely.

There is also room for numerous tracks at St Leonards.
AheadMatthewawsome

There is no point in creating sidings at St Leonards. There is even less point in using P1 and P4 at St Leonards, you would still be stuck with the rest of the trains.

This can help seperate the NSL/Northern Lines. And the Western Line. Western Line trains can start at the loosely used Platforms 2 and 3 at North Sydney. We can then close down the Cahill Expressway. Use the former tracks on the Eastern Side of the Bridge. And use the old Platforms 1 and 2 at Wynyard.
AheadMatthewawsome

You’re not closing a main arterial road.

There are plans for the conversion of the NSL (To Hornsby) and IWL (To Homebush) into Metro. These lines would merge into 1. This would happen in the early 2030's. Western and Northern line services would terminate at Sydney Terminal. (Link will be available ASAP)
AheadMatthewawsome

Where? There aren’t any such plans, as far as I know.

More weekend services are desperately needed on the Upper North Shore due to overcrowding. Having 5-6 trains per hour compared to the current 4 would be perfect for stations like Turramurra and Waitara. Who are bursting at the scenes with recent development.
AheadMatthewawsome

Bursting at the seams Matthew.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
Well, @s3_gunzel has come back to try and shut me down again? Not this time mother.... Where are my manners? I left them the moment you made this comment.

Before I start... I understand why you are thinking that it's self centred. It's because these things that your all talking about would affect my life.

First, IT'S A FREAKING JOKE! DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THAT YOU'LL COME AND KNOCK DOWN MY HOUSE LIKE THE EMPORER OF PERSIA?! Just like Paul Keeting said, "You gotta be joking!".

Next, Did you know that Turramurra is my local station. The staff know me, I know them. I get my Hot Chocolate at Cafe Oasis. Then I catch either the Bus or Train to wherever I need to go. That can be for Work, School, Train Spotting, Exercise, going to the Airport for a funeral, and seeing the Attractions of Sydney.

Turramurra has 4 stands. Which serve routes 571, 572, 573, 575, 576T, 577, and 577P. And serves School Buses for 6 High Schools. 2 Primary Schools, which is rare in Sydney. And numerous private School Buses and Charters. This is way more than say Gordon. And serves over half of the buses in Region 12!

Next, There is a whole project called the Highline is doing exactly this. And has quite a lot of support from the locals. I acknowledge my affiliation with Luna Park Sydney. Because one of you would have a go at me for not saying it. I seem to never get anything right with you lot. And your not helping it, Gunzel!


Lots of you have been talking about rebuilding the tracks on the Eastern Side of the Harbour Bridge. This would require for the Cahill Expressway to close. This is a fantastic opportunity to reuse the strip. The Expressway has been hated since it was built. Even by Clover Moore. She said that "The Cahill Expressway coast off Sydney Harbour". So, you ARE closing down a major road then!

Grammar is not where I shine, it really helps for there to be a spell checker on my devices. So it's completely unesseseary to shut me down about it.

Today won't be a day for you to shut me down mother... bull... shoot...
  Airvan99 Junior Train Controller

Don’t get excited Matt, as has been pointed out this is a discussion forum, it’s all hot air, nothing will be decided here. It’s just a few people shooting the breeze  in the pub.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
I know about that this is a discussion forum. I'm just pulling my leg a bit. LaughingLaughingLaughing

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