Aussie politics thread (2)

 
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Hey Mick, I was going to say that the above links would get our Don going, but he's still busy with the dams. Give him time.

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  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Hey Mick, I was going to say that the above links would get our Don going, but he's still busy with the dams. Give him time.
wobert
Who’s Don?

And Foot in mouth issue?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Where did you get the idea that a desal plant costs that little? The total cost of building the Wonthaggi plant was $5,700,000,000. The total cost of the Aquasure contract to Victorian water users is around $25 billion to $30 billion over the lifetime of the deal because of the 'take or pay' provisions of the agreement.

You're so far out of the ball-park its really hard to take anything that you say seriously.
Where did I say that I cared about the Co2 emissions coming from desalination plants? I'm in awe of the fact that the people on this board normally upset about the spewing of carbon into the atmosphere apparently don't seem concerned when its firing a desalination plant - why?

As I said before, you can carbon offset all you want with windmills - the fact is that a desalination plant can't operate using renewables alone - it needs a really steady supply of electricity like a coal plant provides.
don_dunstan
Seriously Don, please stop wasting everyone's time.

Construction $4B
Operating cost over 25 yeas $1.5B, includes labour, replacement of membranes, chemicals costs and energy. 25 year Lifecycle cost about $5.5B.

Melbourne's plant is huge, hence the higher cost, bigger than I think the rest of the countries combined and can supply 33% of Melbourne's demand. Why don't you tell us where Melbourne was going to find an additional 33% extra water for the 25 year life costs of this plant, that including pumping costs Don which has already been explained and demonstrated to be a considerable extra cost of transporting water a long distance, long meaning anything more than 100km and you have seen the costs providing water to Kalgoolie.

Take or Pay is standard terms and conditions for this type of project to enable bankable finance arrangements, likewise the aluminium smelters have take or pay contracts for their power.

Sydney's and Perth's desal plants were built with RE energy off-sets. Likewise a commitment was made for Melbourne, although I'm unaware of the exact details.

Its call an "off-set" for a reason Don, how about spending 5min learning what that actually means.

"You're so far out of the ball-park its really hard to take anything that you say seriously."

Not hard from myside Don, I simply don't from you.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
With a weakened economy over the next few years, this could get very painful

https://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/australia-s-carbon-price-is-coming-one-way-or-another-20210331-p57fl9.html#comments


And if the ALP win the next election, you can bet the LNP and it's fellow travellers will be whinging and moaning about how it's all Labors fault.
What a wasted decade.
As much as I hope the LNP get punted at the next election but, should they secure another term, the delicious irony of them having to implement a carbon pricing mechanism.
And agree Wobert, a wasted decade.
michaelgm
Mmm, Fed ALP haven't balanced the budget since what the late 1980's and couldn't even manage it during a booming economy of 2011 - 2013.  You may think the last decade was wasted, but based on the ALP's economic performance for the last 30 years, it would not doubt have been worse.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Agree, a 2nd dam on the Nepean would have been great to capture this extra water today, but a few issues
1) Where can you build it?
One could technically argue that a higher Warragamba dam wall would, in effect, increase storage capacity and retain the latest overflow, for example.

Slightly off topic but there has been plenty of media coverage over here lately about the proposal to increase the height of the dam for flood mitigation purposes only, not storage, but the arguments of the proponents, whether they be developers, politicians, or developers with politicians in their pocket, are unconvincing when considering that the extra 130,000 people that would be allowed to build on the floodplain would still be at risk due to flooding on the downstream tributaries:

Warragamba Dam wall extension could pave way for more development: David Elliott (smh.com.au)

NSW’s vision for the future dependent on flood modelling (smh.com.au)
DirtyBallast

I'm actually surprised they are not doing the small trick to increase water supply by 1% by simply filtering sea water and pumping into the main supply lines. This would still keep the TDS within safe guidelines and its low cost.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Where did you get the idea that a desal plant costs that little? The total cost of building the Wonthaggi plant was $5,700,000,000. The total cost of the Aquasure contract to Victorian water users is around $25 billion to $30 billion over the lifetime of the deal because of the 'take or pay' provisions of the agreement.

You're so far out of the ball-park its really hard to take anything that you say seriously.
Where did I say that I cared about the Co2 emissions coming from desalination plants? I'm in awe of the fact that the people on this board normally upset about the spewing of carbon into the atmosphere apparently don't seem concerned when its firing a desalination plant - why?

As I said before, you can carbon offset all you want with windmills - the fact is that a desalination plant can't operate using renewables alone - it needs a really steady supply of electricity like a coal plant provides.
Seriously Don, please stop wasting everyone's time.

Construction $4B
Operating cost over 25 yeas $1.5B, includes labour, replacement of membranes, chemicals costs and energy. 25 year Lifecycle cost about $5.5B.

Melbourne's plant is huge, hence the higher cost, bigger than I think the rest of the countries combined and can supply 33% of Melbourne's demand. Why don't you tell us where Melbourne was going to find an additional 33% extra water for the 25 year life costs of this plant, that including pumping costs Don which has already been explained and demonstrated to be a considerable extra cost of transporting water a long distance, long meaning anything more than 100km and you have seen the costs providing water to Kalgoolie.

Take or Pay is standard terms and conditions for this type of project to enable bankable finance arrangements, likewise the aluminium smelters have take or pay contracts for their power.

Sydney's and Perth's desal plants were built with RE energy off-sets. Likewise a commitment was made for Melbourne, although I'm unaware of the exact details.

Its call an "off-set" for a reason Don, how about spending 5min learning what that actually means.

"You're so far out of the ball-park its really hard to take anything that you say seriously."

Not hard from myside Don, I simply don't from you.
RTT_Rules
LOL so how close are your own figures to the $100,000,000 you quoted? You were patently wrong and you're trying to make out that somehow its my fault.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
LOL so how close are your own figures to the $100,000,000 you quoted? You were patently wrong and you're trying to make out that somehow its my fault.
don_dunstan
Don
I indicated the desal plants are scalable based on requirement and mostly speaking generally which I assume was obvious from the post. If you want to talk specific locations and sizes, we can do that.

Now, once again. What is the alternative dam projects available to boost Melbourne's long-term water supply by 33%, where are they and how much do they cost in both capital and operational?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
LOL so how close are your own figures to the $100,000,000 you quoted? You were patently wrong and you're trying to make out that somehow its my fault.
Don
I indicated the desal plants are scalable based on requirement and mostly speaking generally which I assume was obvious from the post. If you want to talk specific locations and sizes, we can do that.

Now, once again. What is the alternative dam projects available to boost Melbourne's long-term water supply by 33%, where are they and how much do they cost in both capital and operational?
RTT_Rules
Shane, $100 million is patently NOT $4 or $5 billion for a scaled up plant that can service the needs of a city like Melbourne. What sort of a plant do they get for $100,000,000 - one that will flush your toilet? These plants are capital intensive are FAR from cheap to build and operate.

And Victoria has a huge number of potential locations for new dams - they would have been much better off spending the money on a water grid rather than a desal plant. 'Better networks' are the answer for unreliable solar and wind energy - so why not water?

There is no question to which a massive desalination plant was the right answer in Victoria.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
LOL so how close are your own figures to the $100,000,000 you quoted? You were patently wrong and you're trying to make out that somehow its my fault.
Don
I indicated the desal plants are scalable based on requirement and mostly speaking generally which I assume was obvious from the post. If you want to talk specific locations and sizes, we can do that.

Now, once again. What is the alternative dam projects available to boost Melbourne's long-term water supply by 33%, where are they and how much do they cost in both capital and operational?
Shane, $100 million is patently NOT $4 or $5 billion for a scaled up plant that can service the needs of a city like Melbourne. What sort of a plant do they get for $100,000,000 - one that will flush your toilet? These plants are capital intensive are FAR from cheap to build and operate.

And Victoria has a huge number of potential locations for new dams - they would have been much better off spending the money on a water grid rather than a desal plant. 'Better networks' are the answer for unreliable solar and wind energy - so why not water?

There is no question to which a massive desalination plant was the right answer in Victoria.
don_dunstan
Oh Don.

Don, how many times do I have to tell you I was talking generally and if you really want to know I was comparing the cost of building a desal plant vs the cost of building the Wyaralong Dam as there are almost large scale dam projects completed in the last 10-15 years to use a reference point. The desal plant to treat the water from the Wyaralong dam is over $100m cheaper than the dam construction cost.  

It is also very difficult to find estimates of the amount of water to be supplied from the cancelled projects of Traveston Dam and Upper Shoalhaven.

$100M of desal CAPEX gets you ~ 10,100 ML per year, about 20,000 - 30,000 homes.  

One more time Don, tell us the locations of which Victoria can build dams to supply 33% of Melbourne's needs and how much will these cost? Considering Melbourne sources are the water equivalent of SA's rag tale fleet of thermal power generation (before RE), I wouldn't be holding my breath you can secure this water supply for the price and get past the expected massive opposition expected.

I thought Don of all people you would know that the new age of power is not limited to just power generation but also water supply and that includes,

- rainwater tank capture by end users, previously banned by govt's trying to generate demand and income to fund the huge loans to pay off high cost dam projects in the past.

- Reuse of waste water

- Raising walls were practical.

- Desal to supply a near continuous supply of water to support and extend the capacity of existing storage sources.

Desal appears to have been the correct answer for Melbourne as they didn't just build a desal plant, they built a massive one so clearly the govt is looking longer term and acknowledging the current and projected population growth has surpassed the existing storage capacity.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

With a weakened economy over the next few years, this could get very painful

https://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/australia-s-carbon-price-is-coming-one-way-or-another-20210331-p57fl9.html#comments


And if the ALP win the next election, you can bet the LNP and it's fellow travellers will be whinging and moaning about how it's all Labors fault.
What a wasted decade.
As much as I hope the LNP get punted at the next election but, should they secure another term, the delicious irony of them having to implement a carbon pricing mechanism.
And agree Wobert, a wasted decade.
Mmm, Fed ALP haven't balanced the budget since what the late 1980's and couldn't even manage it during a booming economy of 2011 - 2013.  You may think the last decade was wasted, but based on the ALP's economic performance for the last 30 years, it would not doubt have been worse.
RTT_Rules
A balanced budget isn’t the only measurement of competent government. Remembering this pearl, we’ve bought the budget back into balance next year.
The LNP smeg show continues daily, I’ve bookmarked the Sunday after the election, whenever that maybe to assist the member for Cook, moving out from the Lodge.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A balanced budget isn’t the only measurement of competent government. Remembering this pearl, we’ve bought the budget back into balance next year.
The LNP smeg show continues daily, I’ve bookmarked the Sunday after the election, whenever that maybe to assist the member for Cook, moving out from the Lodge.
michaelgm
Its not the only metric but Kevin Rudd clearly knows its a top KPI as it was his repeated election promise to maintain a balanced budget over the economic cycle, which ALP failed to produce. The LNP took too long once taken power, however unlike the ALP they entered govt with a stalling economy, declining wages, commodity downturn and committed ALP spending policy.  

SCOMO is currently polling very well with male voters 65% approval, but lost the female vote of late, he has 15 months to turn it around, considering what happened in 2019, their current position is very comfortable.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
One more time Don, tell us the locations of which Victoria can build dams to supply 33% of Melbourne's needs and how much will these cost?
RTT_Rules
He couldn't answer me when I asked, RTT, and his answer to you tells it all.

And Victoria has a huge number of potential locations for new dams -
don_dunstan
Absolutely pathetic. A statement with no basis in fact whatsoever. Where are my answers, Don? Just so you don't have to bother looking back to find the questions, here they are again:-

Questions for our out-of-state expert:
Where would you put these extra dams?
How many streams would be affected?
How much privately-owned land would be acquired and flooded?
How extensive are the catchment areas?
Will any of the new catchments encroach upon others?

Your move, Mr Expert!
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Sorry Mick, I flatly refuse to watch or listen to that lying rat fokker.  Living in a house with 2 sometimes 3  women who are rather vocal about the current goings on in Canberra tends to concentrate the mind.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Does anyone recall this happening at Easter previously?
"michaelgm"
Yeah; not necessarily at Easter, but Bob Hawke tried it when Australia won the Americas Cup. Hawke needed to be loved; Morrison will try anything except actually doing something to gain popularity.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Oh Don.

Don, how many times do I have to tell you I was talking generally ...
RTT_RulesThis
What you meant to say was that you weren't talking about a real, actual desalination plant that could be of practical use.
Absolutely pathetic. A statement with no basis in fact whatsoever
Valvegear
LOL another one of these occasions when you really don't know what you're talking about.

This study identified 12,000 sites that pumped hydro could be located in VIC and NSW. Swap 'pumped hydro' for simple 'reservoir' and you'll soon realise that we haven't even scratched the surface with dam construction across the Great Dividing Range.

Weird how we're not allowed to consider new water storages UNLESS it's in the name of some ridiculous uncosted green fantasy, in which case they can find thousands of potential sites.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
$100M of desal CAPEX gets you ~ 10,100 ML per year, about 20,000 - 30,000 homes.  
RTT_Rules

A snip at five grand per household for the initial plant - and that doesn't include ongoing operational costs.

Give it up, Shane, it's expensive and environmentally damaging.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
LOL another one of these occasions when you really don't know what you're talking about.

This study identified 12,000 sites that pumped hydro could be located in VIC and NSW. Swap 'pumped hydro' for simple 'reservoir' and you'll soon realise that we haven't even scratched the surface with dam construction across the Great Dividing Range.
"don_dunstan"
Poor Don, he tries so hard and immediately reveals that he has no idea of the difference between a dam and a storage reservoir. I think I will LOL but it will be at him. Tough luck Don; you just screwed up again.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I thought Don of all people you would know that the new age of power is not limited to just power generation but also water supply and that includes, - rainwater tank capture by end users, previously banned by govt's trying to generate demand and income to fund the huge loans to pay off high cost dam projects in the past. - Reuse of waste water - Raising walls were practical. - Desal to supply a near continuous supply of water to support and extend the capacity of existing storage sources. Desal appears to have been the correct answer for Melbourne as they didn't just build a desal plant, they built a massive one so clearly the govt is looking longer term and acknowledging the current and projected population growth has surpassed the existing storage capacity.
RTT_Rules

You have to get people to accept the re-use of waste water - it's politically difficult.

That's why we've ended up with the most expensive option.

As for wastewater recycling - do what they've done in the UK and Europe for centuries. Put very clean treated waste water into a river and then further on down the river take the water out and treat it again. That' way its 'river water' and not 'recycled water'.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
LOL another one of these occasions when you really don't know what you're talking about.

This study identified 12,000 sites that pumped hydro could be located in VIC and NSW. Swap 'pumped hydro' for simple 'reservoir' and you'll soon realise that we haven't even scratched the surface with dam construction across the Great Dividing Range.
Poor Don, he tries so hard and immediately reveals that he has no idea of the difference between a dam and a storage reservoir. I think I will LOL but it will be at him. Tough luck Don; you just screwed up again.
Valvegear
LOL - really, there's a huge difference between a 'dam' and a 'storage reservoir'? Prey tell, what's that difference? Or are you just trying to use a semantic trick to win an argument (shock, horror!).
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
LOL - really, there's a huge difference between a 'dam' and a 'storage reservoir'? Prey tell, what's that difference? Or are you just trying to use a semantic trick to win an argument (shock, horror!).
don_dunstan
There is a considerable difference between a dam and a storage reservoir.
A dam is a wall placed across a perennial steam which itself is fed from a wide catchment area. The dam wall blocks the stream flow and a quantity of water is forced to build up behind it.
A storage reservoir is a location usually in a natural valley which is blocked off where necessary. This space is not filled by a stream, but by water pumped or gravity fed from the dams.

Feeding the Melbourne area, Upper Yarra, Thomson, Maroondah, Silvan and a couple of smaller locations are dams. Cardinia and Greenvale, for example, are storage reservoirs.
Doubtless there are many sites usable as storage reservoirs. The same is not true for dams.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
As for wastewater recycling - do what they've done in the UK and Europe for centuries. Put very clean treated waste water into a river and then further on down the river take the water out and treat it again. That' way its 'river water' and not 'recycled water'.
don_dunstan
Isn't that what already happens to our waste water? Confused
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
As for wastewater recycling - do what they've done in the UK and Europe for centuries. Put very clean treated waste water into a river and then further on down the river take the water out and treat it again. That' way its 'river water' and not 'recycled water'.
Isn't that what already happens to our waste water? Confused
Graham4405
Not sure about Dalby source (still up in the hills ??)

But all the towns on the Murray/Darling take from the river after some other town upstream has dealt with their waste, by cleaning and dump.

How does is feel in Adelaide to know your drinking somebody else's $hit ??Laughing
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Except that they're not. You probably breath in more stool molecules from your neighbour's dog's eggs each time you go out in your garden on a warm day than you would from drinking Adelaide water. Australians can be ridiculously prissy about this sort of thing.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Except that they're not. You probably breath in more stool molecules from your neighbour's dog's eggs each time you go out in your garden on a warm day than you would from drinking Adelaide water. Australians can be ridiculously prissy about this sort of thing.
billybaxter
Oh billy, i was only taking the pi$$

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