Aussie politics thread (2)

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Hey Mick, I was going to say that the above links would get our Don going, but he's still busy with the dams. Give him time.
Who’s Don?

And Foot in mouth issue?
michaelgm

"Save the utes"...Michaela Cash.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/they-re-coming-for-your-utes-oh-please-enough-with-the-limp-scares-20190411-p51d9j.html

A brazen appeal against electric cars from the COALition.

Now that not so sleepy President Joe has announced huge infrastructure and support for EV's our conservative government just looks completely out of touch. I'm predicting spin master ScoMo will lose the upcoming poll.

Mike.

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Have any of you been following the desperate plan by Australia to have Mathias Cormann appointed as the new head of the OECD.  Mr Cormann is a fascinating character epecially his background in financial affairs in Belguim before he came to Australia and entered politics.    The OECD is not very happy with Australia as when Mr. Cormann was Minister of Finance for Australia he refused to implement a set of standards the OECD was asking Australia to adopt.  The OECD has been pressuring Australia to get tough on corruption and Mr. Cormann in his capacity would not implement laws relating to Bribery.  The OECD have tried and tried but the current government has resisted doing this.  They have also resisted creating and properly funding an entirely independent Commission Against Corruption.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has been very supportive of Mathias Cormann being appointed to the role of the head of the OECD.  How could this be good for the OECD?  It would certainly be good for Australia as the pressure would come off implementing the above.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/08/uk-warned-not-to-back-mathias-cormann-as-new-oecd-head
NSWGR8022

On the back of those interesting comments above I want to refer to what is termed the “Helloworld” scandal in Australia, which was revealed in 2019 and which also involves the former Liberal Party Minister for Justice, Mathias Cormann, who, as you have foreshadowed, has just been appointed Secretary General of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation & Development (OECD) in France.

In 2019 the press revealed this travel services company, which provides travel services to the Australian Government, is controlled by important Liberal Part identities, including a former Liberal Party Minister, a significant political donor to the Liberal Party and a former Australian Ambassador to the US, Joe Hockey, who is a friend and golf partner of President Donald Trump and is now a lobbyist in Washington.

Two of Helloworld’s most important customers have been the Australian Government and PwCA and PwCA has been Helloworld’s auditor.

Why did PwCA not identify this misconduct prior to it being revealed by the press in 2019 and why have these matters not been disclosed and explained in PwCA’s Transparency Reports?

The Australian taxpayer has even been funding Mr Cormann’s travels around the world, despite Mr Cormann now being just a private citizen, as he, and Australian politicians and the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs & Trade, lobbied for this OECD role, which is completely improper unless the Australian Government could explain why this investment of taxpayer money had an objective that was in the interests of Australian taxpayers.

The Australian Prime Minister stated that he had committed taxpayer money to fly Mr Cormann, as a private citizen, around the world to enable Mr Cormann to lobby for this role at the OECD to protect Mr Cormann from catching covid19.

This is obviously a blatant lie.

Protecting a private Australian citizen from covid19 by using taxpayer money to fund the extraordinary cost of sending Government jets to fly Mr Cormann around the world while at the same time intentionally stranding, from March 2020, and then effectively detaining, 100,000-200,000 Australian taxpayer citizens that are currently stranded around the world and leaving them to to die from covid, malnutrition and crime, and without providing these increasingly desperate people any financial assistance, which is in breach of both Australian and international law, partly explains the Prime Ministers blatant lie.

Mr Cormann has been the subject of a number of allegations of improperly having the taxpayer pay for flights that had nothing to do with his role as Minister for Justice.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

"Save the utes"...Michaela Cash.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/they-re-coming-for-your-utes-oh-please-enough-with-the-limp-scares-20190411-p51d9j.html

A brazen appeal against electric cars from the COALition.

Now that not so sleepy President Joe has announced huge infrastructure and support for EV's our conservative government just looks completely out of touch. I'm predicting spin master ScoMo will lose the upcoming poll.

Mike.
The Vinelander
While I support eV, the issue facing Australia has nothing to do with charging stations, but rather lack of choice of EV to suit our market and until the range improves, charging stations are only going to be a minor issue. Regardless the various govts including the Fed govt has been investing in charging station roll out for two years now. The private sector won't jump on this in a big way until the manufacturers start importing EV's that the Australia consumer will buy in large numbers and today those models simply don't exist, yet!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
$100M of desal CAPEX gets you ~ 10,100 ML per year, about 20,000 - 30,000 homes.  

A snip at five grand per household for the initial plant - and that doesn't include ongoing operational costs.

Give it up, Shane, it's expensive and environmentally damaging.
don_dunstan
Don, I've provided the costs of pumping water long distances.

I know exactly how much desal water costs and provided it, you clearly don't know the cost of building dams, pumping water and desal operation and cannot even quote the running costs of the Vic desal plant correctly as you repeatedly imply desal costs millions or billions, yet dams are free.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka

"Save the utes"...Michaela Cash.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/they-re-coming-for-your-utes-oh-please-enough-with-the-limp-scares-20190411-p51d9j.html

A brazen appeal against electric cars from the COALition.

Now that not so sleepy President Joe has announced huge infrastructure and support for EV's our conservative government just looks completely out of touch. I'm predicting spin master ScoMo will lose the upcoming poll.

Mike.While I support eV, the issue facing Australia has nothing to do with charging stations, but rather lack of choice of EV to suit our market and until the range improves, charging stations are only going to be a minor issue. Regardless the various govts including the Fed govt has been investing in charging station roll out for two years now. The private sector won't jump on this in a big way until the manufacturers start importing EV's that the Australia consumer will buy in large numbers and today those models simply don't exist, yet!
RTT_Rules
Is that that the truth or did you read it in the Herald Sun/Murdoch Press
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

"Save the utes"...Michaela Cash.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/they-re-coming-for-your-utes-oh-please-enough-with-the-limp-scares-20190411-p51d9j.html

A brazen appeal against electric cars from the COALition.

Now that not so sleepy President Joe has announced huge infrastructure and support for EV's our conservative government just looks completely out of touch. I'm predicting spin master ScoMo will lose the upcoming poll.

Mike.While I support eV, the issue facing Australia has nothing to do with charging stations, but rather lack of choice of EV to suit our market and until the range improves, charging stations are only going to be a minor issue. Regardless the various govts including the Fed govt has been investing in charging station roll out for two years now. The private sector won't jump on this in a big way until the manufacturers start importing EV's that the Australia consumer will buy in large numbers and today those models simply don't exist, yet!Is that that the truth or did you read it in the Herald Sun/Murdoch Press
wobert

Umm, common sense. Time to install the right lens in your glasses so your vision is clearer.Cool

Go through the top 10 car sales in 2020 (basically 1/3 of all car sales), what do you see?

Now go to the manufacturers websites and find a EV equivalent sold anywhere in the world in LHD built to the required Australian safety standards, what do you see?

Now do the maths...

Hell extend it out to the Top 20 cars (50% of all car sales), I tell you what, go to the top 30 cars

Here's the list for you to save you time googling, goes to the top 100 cars.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/top-100-new-cars-sold-in-australia-in-2020-82038

Shorten and/or his advisers were too stupid in his EV sales pitch to acknowledge the #1 basic issue facing EV sales in Australia in leading up to 2019 and until at least 2023 the situation won't change a great deal. The overall policy I didn't actually have much objection to although I personally object to subsidising the cost of new car sales based on fuel type, but I doubt these guys could sell water to the Arabs.

Now remember if I recall correctly our resident #1 Victorian Labor voter here, Vinelander, who supports the EV policy by the ALP who is also a car enthusiast has previously stated he is not interested in an EV and yet I think he at least used to drive a Mini which has an EV option available in Australia. I'm sure Mike will come back to update us on this.

Plenty of charging stations in Vic
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/new-electric-vehicle-charge-stations-north-west-victoria

However compared to the Right Wing NSW, meh, not so much
https://www.statista.com/statistics/982060/dc-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-by-state-australia/
But, as we have all discussed before, Vic is a fraction of the size of NSW and thus the charging station density is actually higher in Vic.

Even in Mike's beloved NW is getting a boost, https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/new-electric-vehicle-charge-stations-north-west-victoria
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Ive just  got home from the boozer Shane, but most of the links seem to be from the States, perhaps another time. Diamond Creek tomorrow, 4.5 hors on a good day, and i have to sober up.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I've just  got home from the boozer Shane, but most of the links seem to be from the States, perhaps another time. Diamond Creek tomorrow, 4.5 hors on a good day, and I have to sober up.
wobert
I choose some for Vic for a reason as it was in answer to Mike.

I did post some at Fed level, but there is more if you need.

So enjoy your drinking, no need to sober up.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
As for wastewater recycling - do what they've done in the UK and Europe for centuries. Put very clean treated waste water into a river and then further on down the river take the water out and treat it again. That' way its 'river water' and not 'recycled water'.
Isn't that what already happens to our waste water? Confused
Not sure about Dalby source (still up in the hills ??)

But all the towns on the Murray/Darling take from the river after some other town upstream has dealt with their waste, by cleaning and dump.

How does is feel in Adelaide to know your drinking somebody else's $hit ??Laughing
justarider
We're all doing it all along the Murray/Darling basin - Gunnamatta outfall (VIC Eastern Treatment Plant) is so clean now-days that it has no bacteria and almost no nutrients, should really be piped to Cardinia despite what people like RTT_Rules think. A national water grid albeit smaller than the Bradfield scheme is whats needed.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
As for wastewater recycling - do what they've done in the UK and Europe for centuries. Put very clean treated waste water into a river and then further on down the river take the water out and treat it again. That' way its 'river water' and not 'recycled water'.
Isn't that what already happens to our waste water? Confused
Not sure about Dalby source (still up in the hills ??)

But all the towns on the Murray/Darling take from the river after some other town upstream has dealt with their waste, by cleaning and dump.

How does is feel in Adelaide to know your drinking somebody else's $hit ??Laughing
We're all doing it all along the Murray/Darling basin - Gunnamatta outfall (VIC Eastern Treatment Plant) is so clean now-days that it has no bacteria and almost no nutrients, should really be piped to Cardinia despite what people like RTT_Rules think. A national water grid albeit smaller than the Bradfield scheme is whats needed.
don_dunstan
Don making up things again.
At what point did I say you cannot recycle water?

A national water grid is pointless when the cost of moving water around exceeds the cost of simply pumping from the nearest coast line via a desal plant, which is why all these long held "pipe dream" water schemes such as pumping down from Lake Argle have all disappeared in the last 10-20 years.

Of interest, Sth Australia's own desal plant for which Don has been very quiet on was built because of the water taken by others further up stream of the Murry. Also interesting to hear Don not call for more Dam's in SA instead of the desal plant which due to its use has single handily eliminated SA's perpetual water restrictions.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Now remember if I recall correctly our resident #1 Victorian Labor voter here, Vinelander, who supports the EV policy by the ALP who is also a car enthusiast has previously stated he is not interested in an EV and yet I think he at least used to drive a Mini which has an EV option available in Australia. I'm sure Mike will come back to update us on this.

Plenty of charging stations in Vic
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/new-electric-vehicle-charge-stations-north-west-victoria

However compared to the Right Wing NSW, meh, not so much
https://www.statista.com/statistics/982060/dc-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-by-state-australia/
But, as we have all discussed before, Vic is a fraction of the size of NSW and thus the charging station density is actually higher in Vic.

Even in Mike's beloved NW is getting a boost, https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/new-electric-vehicle-charge-stations-north-west-victoria
RTT_Rules

Yes, back in 2004, knowing it might be my last new car I spent over $60k on the most expensive and powerful MINI Cooper S at the time. It's still sitting in my garage and will get a run tomorrow when I drive to Avalon to pick up my partner returning from his holiday in Adelaide. (the Overland doesn't run on Mondays)

However the MINI hasn't had a run in over three weeks because I've been on my previously reported e-bike holiday in east Gippsland and if I go to Melbourne or Ballarat I lean more to taking V/Line, because I'm only a 5 minute walk from the station. I planned it that way in 1982.

If the electronics all hold out in the MINI I hope to get another 5 or 10 years out of it. No point in wasting $$ updating a perfectly serviceable, pampered vehicle.

Mike.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Minister for Finance?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Yes, back in 2004, knowing it might be my last new car I spent over $60k on the most expensive and powerful MINI Cooper S at the time. It's still sitting in my garage and will get a run tomorrow when I drive to Avalon to pick up my partner returning from his holiday in Adelaide. (the Overland doesn't run on Mondays)

However the MINI hasn't had a run in over three weeks because I've been on my previously reported e-bike holiday in east Gippsland and if I go to Melbourne or Ballarat I lean more to taking V/Line, because I'm only a 5 minute walk from the station. I planned it that way in 1982.

If the electronics all hold out in the MINI I hope to get another 5 or 10 years out of it. No point in wasting $$ updating a perfectly serviceable, pampered vehicle.

Mike.
The Vinelander
...and I'm sure you enjoy every minute of it.

My point is that we seem to have an element pushing the govt to force people to buy EV's or bitching about charging stations yet those same people are not in a rush to buy one themselves. Some here have stated they don't want to  buy one simply because they lack the "growl" of a V8, despite their performance to out run a V8.

As some of you know, I'm very pro EV, but they will come when there are suitable models available for the buyers, EV charging stations and range phobia is a non-minor issue if you are looking for a car of a certain model, say ute (what I'd be buying) which is about 20% of the Australian market and it simply doesn't exist in an EV model, yet. Even if the Tesla truck was to come, I'm still not buying it as I don't like the look and size of it. When the dual cab market has an EV, then I'm a potential buyer.

If you look at Australia's EV sales, its not charging stations that has seen jumps in EV sales, its actual new models. Over the last 4 years, most EV models once released don't seem to stabilize in sales per month within 6mths of coming to market and then change little since. IF charging stations was the major roadblock, then as more charging stations get installed sales of individual models would rise.  The Model 3/Y has had the biggest influence on EV sales to date in Australia.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
E- buses are about to take over. A 500 Km range will see to this.

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/2102/custom-denning-element-e-bus-now-adr-approved

Range anxiety of electric cars is rapidly vanishing, however I think ultimately our conservative federal government is what's generally slowing the uptake with no incentives to change over from petrol cars. Enter Joe Biden's strong support for electric cars.
Another reason I believe, with a majority of only one seat ScoMo is toast in a few months. The Feds can hardly support electric cars when three years ago they were lampooning electric cars and Michaela Cash was 'saving the utes'

Labor, federally has policies to address the conundrum you describe Shane and the our states in general, like with renewables have left the feds way behind. I go for a ride on my bike and within 10 mins of leaving the house and I can see over 100 wind towers majestically and silently doing their thing.

V8 'growls' are a generational thing. The upcoming generation is far more environmentally aware and are largely unimpressed by growling engines. Indeed, as PT has improved exponentially these past 20 years or so, many young people are not even bothering with car ownership at all.

And we've all see the video:

https://drivetribe.com/p/tesla-model-s-v-holden-v8-supercar-fHj5GodQTSu5YYjZL5PWZw

Mike.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Don making up things again.
At what point did I say you cannot recycle water?

A national water grid is pointless when the cost of moving water around exceeds the cost of simply pumping from the nearest coast line via a desal plant, which is why all these long held "pipe dream" water schemes such as pumping down from Lake Argle have all disappeared in the last 10-20 years.
RTT_Rules
You said it wasn't economic to pump water around (which by necessity you've got to do with recycled water).

Desal plants are NOT the answer. Just because they do it in Dubai you think its the answer for the rest of the world. It's hellishly expensive and its putting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere which is apparently some kind of poison (even though its necessary for life).
Of interest, Sth Australia's own desal plant for which Don has been very quiet on was built because of the water taken by others further up stream of the Murry. Also interesting to hear Don not call for more Dam's in SA instead of the desal plant which due to its use has single handily eliminated SA's perpetual water restrictions.
RTT_Rules
Simple. We don't have the capacity for more new dams here like they do in VIC and NSW.

Our desalination plant was operating for the last nine years at ten percent capacity (recently they jacked it up a tiny bit)  because it simply isn't needed. It contributes a whole two percent to the overall water needs of Adelaide. It was built at the height of the 'climate change' panic in 2007 along with Wonthaggi but we didn't go for anything like the scale of that plant because someone in charge in this state had the brains to realise a massive one wasn't needed in the longer term. And they were right.

And we never had water restrictions here the same as they did in Victoria - there's pretty much nothing in the above paragraph that you've got right.

But what else is new? You conflate opinion with fact all the time, you don't research anything before you write about it. No wonder I usually don't bother reading what you've written - it's nearly always wrong.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
Range anxiety of electric cars is rapidly vanishing,
The Vinelander
Just checking carsales.com.au, For $40k I can buy a 2018 Nissan Leaf with a 250km range. No thanks. For $22k I can buy a similar age (petrol powered) Toyota Corolla that will take me ~800km on a tank.

I'm not interested in buying new, you take a huge depreciation hit when you drive the vehicle of the car lot.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
E- buses are about to take over. A 500 Km range will see to this.

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/2102/custom-denning-element-e-bus-now-adr-approved

Range anxiety of electric cars is rapidly vanishing, however I think ultimately our conservative federal government is what's generally slowing the uptake with no incentives to change over from petrol cars. Enter Joe Biden's strong support for electric cars.
Another reason I believe, with a majority of only one seat ScoMo is toast in a few months. The Feds can hardly support electric cars when three years ago they were lampooning electric cars and Michaela Cash was 'saving the utes'

Labor, federally has policies to address the conundrum you describe Shane and the our states in general, like with renewables have left the feds way behind. I go for a ride on my bike and within 10 mins of leaving the house and I can see over 100 wind towers majestically and silently doing their thing.

V8 'growls' are a generational thing. The upcoming generation is far more environmentally aware and are largely unimpressed by growling engines. Indeed, as PT has improved exponentially these past 20 years or so, many young people are not even bothering with car ownership at all.

And we've all see the video:

https://drivetribe.com/p/tesla-model-s-v-holden-v8-supercar-fHj5GodQTSu5YYjZL5PWZw

Mike.
The Vinelander
Yes, the range anxiety is only a minor issue now.

However sorry, Mike I completely disagree and like Wobert you are being driven by your one eyed politics in your thinking not reality.

As I said to Wobert, go through the list of EV's available in LHD now globally and then compare against what the Australian market is buying. You will quickly see the bulk of new car sales does not have an EV alternative also noting that most EV's require buyers to change brands, thus EV sales are fighting brand loyalty for now.

The save the utes comment was not exactly wrong. What ute today, 2 years later is available in ute? None of the popular dual cabs will be offered in EV version for at least another 2 years, some not before 2025. Ford is rumored to have a EV Ranger in 2023, Toyota has not even fully committed to the EV bandwagon yet, still trying to flog H2. So Australia's #1 and #2 best selling cars not available in EV nor is their entire class and yet people are waffling on about incentives.

Also I find it strange that a the ALP supporters from the deep south are wanting to provide financial incentives to the wealthy to convince them to buy an EV as currently there is basically no mid market or less EV available? I would have thought if I had $70k or more to spend on a new car, the very last thing the we should be doing is providing 5k or so to encourage them to buy an EV. If they want an EV, they will buy it, 5k or what ever will do SFA incentive wise.

There is a time and a place for everything. Billy was promoting EV's at a time when the practicality of doing so was lacking, his sales pitch was completely off and couldn't see water to the Arab's as we later saw when the bulk of the country to PO. The timing to roll out incentives or penalties for EV's is still not yet but coming. In the mean time the Fed's have supported the expansion of the fast charger network via ARENA.

Mike, I thought it was common knowledge that the states have been accountable for providing most of Australia's electricity for 100 years. Even the Snowy Hydro was only part fed funded/owned until recently as part of the SNOWY 2.0 project. The fed's provide the regulatory platform for the trading of electricity.

V8 growls maybe generational, but the people with the money to buy the V8 growl and the same ones with the money to buy an EV.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Don making up things again.
At what point did I say you cannot recycle water?

A national water grid is pointless when the cost of moving water around exceeds the cost of simply pumping from the nearest coast line via a desal plant, which is why all these long held "pipe dream" water schemes such as pumping down from Lake Argle have all disappeared in the last 10-20 years.
You said it wasn't economic to pump water around (which by necessity you've got to do with recycled water).

Desal plants are NOT the answer. Just because they do it in Dubai you think its the answer for the rest of the world. It's hellishly expensive and its putting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere which is apparently some kind of poison (even though its necessary for life).
Of interest, Sth Australia's own desal plant for which Don has been very quiet on was built because of the water taken by others further up stream of the Murry. Also interesting to hear Don not call for more Dam's in SA instead of the desal plant which due to its use has single handily eliminated SA's perpetual water restrictions.
Simple. We don't have the capacity for more new dams here like they do in VIC and NSW.

Our desalination plant was operating for the last nine years at ten percent capacity (recently they jacked it up a tiny bit)  because it simply isn't needed. It contributes a whole two percent to the overall water needs of Adelaide. It was built at the height of the 'climate change' panic in 2007 along with Wonthaggi but we didn't go for anything like the scale of that plant because someone in charge in this state had the brains to realise a massive one wasn't needed in the longer term. And they were right.

And we never had water restrictions here the same as they did in Victoria - there's pretty much nothing in the above paragraph that you've got right.

But what else is new? You conflate opinion with fact all the time, you don't research anything before you write about it. No wonder I usually don't bother reading what you've written - it's nearly always wrong.
don_dunstan
Oh Don, your back with crap and poorly quoting your references.

I said its not economic to pump water long distances and at around 100 - 200km depending on terrain the cost of building a dam and pumping water exceeds desal water costs. I can repeat again it if you'd like.

Desal and recycled water have the advantage that for all the Australian major centres both are available within a short distance of the geographic centres of the city, thus incurring minimal pumping and capital piping costs.

Desal is not just the solution for the dry middle east, its the solution of choice to much of the drier coastal areas globally or where dam's are simply not practical and/or economic to build. Proof in point every major city in Australia now has one as does much of California and the list goes on.

At no other time do you give a crap about CO2 emissions, so don't try and play this game with me now. Also note that all Australia's Desal plants were built with a commitment to off-set CO2 emissions with RE power, so your comment is as always BS.

Adelaide's Desal plant was needed because of damming of the Murry-Darling basin. So your solution for Melbourne, if indeed does exist and it doesn't is to screw with someone else's water supply, just like Adelaide, which is wide the Fed's co-funded it.

You harp on or rather crap on about the "huge size" of the Melbourne plant, which can supply 33% of Melbourne's needs, but the plant in Adelaide can supply 50% of Adelaide's.

Adelaide's plant has spent most of its life at 10% although operated higher, as the plant is nearly 10 years old , it has basically supplied Adelaide's water supply for one full year. And you wonder why your dam's are not empty??? And unlike Adelaide, Melbourne actually has population growth, so yes its construction is not just for the now, its for the future.

Also interesting that you  pick on desal plants being over sized, but isn't that what a dam is all about?

I think you will find the desal plants were approved to proceed in a major drought that left the major centres with serious concerns about their water supply due to population growth. It was nothing to do with climate change. Had the drought continued then by the time the desal plants were available they would have provided the essential water supply. If the drought is broken, then they are on standby or low production until needed. Its call survival Don. As it turns out, most were completed just before or just after the drought officially broke, this time.  

Once again, you have replied and failed to state where all these extra dam's in Melbourne can be built, meaning you have no idea. As I said before, Melbourne unlike Sydney and Brisbane has a large number of water storage sources due to a lack of significant rivers. Since they likely picked the best ones easily on, this means what left is small and high cost and now likely developed.  But Don still thinks these magical dam location exist....

You always read my posts Don, you will read this one and you will come up with some reply trying to save yourself.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Range anxiety of electric cars is rapidly vanishing,
Just checking carsales.com.au, For $40k I can buy a 2018 Nissan Leaf with a 250km range. No thanks. For $22k I can buy a similar age (petrol powered) Toyota Corolla that will take me ~800km on a tank.

I'm not interested in buying new, you take a huge depreciation hit when you drive the vehicle of the car lot.
Graham4405
Careful, you'll have the electric car cheer squad coming down on you like a tonne of bricks with that kind of logic.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Range anxiety of electric cars is rapidly vanishing,
Just checking carsales.com.au, For $40k I can buy a 2018 Nissan Leaf with a 250km range. No thanks. For $22k I can buy a similar age (petrol powered) Toyota Corolla that will take me ~800km on a tank.

I'm not interested in buying new, you take a huge depreciation hit when you drive the vehicle of the car lot.
Graham4405
Which is all fair enough.

Can I ask the question, if a 4 year old Leaf had 800 km of range and the price was still the same, would it change your choice?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Range anxiety of electric cars is rapidly vanishing,
Just checking carsales.com.au, For $40k I can buy a 2018 Nissan Leaf with a 250km range. No thanks. For $22k I can buy a similar age (petrol powered) Toyota Corolla that will take me ~800km on a tank.

I'm not interested in buying new, you take a huge depreciation hit when you drive the vehicle of the car lot.
Careful, you'll have the electric car cheer squad coming down on you like a tonne of bricks with that kind of logic.
don_dunstan
According to Mike and Wobert, this is the federal LNP's fault.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Oh Don, your back with crap and poorly quoting your references.

I said its not economic to pump water long distances and at around 100 - 200km depending on terrain the cost of building a dam and pumping water exceeds desal water costs. I can repeat again it if you'd like.

Desal and recycled water have the advantage that for all the Australian major centres both are available within a short distance of the geographic centres of the city, thus incurring minimal pumping and capital piping costs.

Desal is not just the solution for the dry middle east, its the solution of choice to much of the drier coastal areas globally or where dam's are simply not practical and/or economic to build. Proof in point every major city in Australia now has one as does much of California and the list goes on.
RTT_Rules
We are NOT at that point in Australia. Perth and Adelaide don't have large potential catchment areas like Sydney and Melbourne with the great dividing range - and the water from Wonthaggi gets pumped to Cardinia anyway.

You go halfway towards agreeing with me and then you swing back to your ignorant argument that 'desal is always better'. Shame.
At no other time do you give a crap about CO2 emissions, so don't try and play this game with me now. Also note that all Australia's Desal plants were built with a commitment to off-set CO2 emissions with RE power, so your comment is as always BS.
RTT_Rules
There is no such thing as running something on "100% 'green' energy", that thing is simply a figment of the power companies and their marketing campaigns. You know as well as I do that on a typical day no less than 85% of Australia's energy needs are being met by fossil fuels. I once had that argument with someone who didn't actually understand the concept of how a grid operates and genuinely thought the lights in his house were exclusively being operated by windmills and panels. After hundreds of billions and 20 years 'renewables' still offer only a tiny portion of Australia's total electricity needs and even then they only operate when they feel like it - not when the grid (or the desalination plants) needs it (ie reliably).

And you're a hypocrite - a screaming fan-boy of electric cars but then not the least bit concerned about the greenhouse gas emissions that come from desal water.
Adelaide's Desal plant was needed because of damming of the Murry-Darling basin.
RTT_Rules
One fact shines though out of all your ignorance - yes - that's exactly what happened. And it happened because the corrupt National Party (federally) with the cooperation of a succession of couldn't-care-less Premiers in NSW and QLD allowed huge dams like the majority-Chinese owned Cubby Station in QLD - they lift 460,000 megalitres from the Darling every year  but they're not the only ones. The other problem we face in trying to get proper flows into the Darling is the privatisation of water licenses so that anyone could buy them (not just adjacent land holders) so they got financialised and expensive.

Everything about QLD and NSW and their attitude to the rest of the nation that depends on that water stinks, they don't care about policing those licenses because they're not the ones who are affected.
So your solution for Melbourne, if indeed does exist and it doesn't is to screw with someone else's water supply, just like Adelaide, which is wide the Fed's co-funded it.

You harp on or rather crap on about the "huge size" of the Melbourne plant, which can supply 33% of Melbourne's needs, but the plant in Adelaide can supply 50% of Adelaide's.

Adelaide's plant has spent most of its life at 10% although operated higher, as the plant is nearly 10 years old , it has basically supplied Adelaide's water supply for one full year. And you wonder why your dam's are not empty??? And unlike Adelaide, Melbourne actually has population growth, so yes its construction is not just for the now, its for the future.

Also interesting that you  pick on desal plants being over sized, but isn't that what a dam is all about?

I think you will find the desal plants were approved to proceed in a major drought that left the major centres with serious concerns about their water supply due to population growth. It was nothing to do with climate change. Had the drought continued then by the time the desal plants were available they would have provided the essential water supply. If the drought is broken, then they are on standby or low production until needed. Its call survival Don. As it turns out, most were completed just before or just after the drought officially broke, this time.  

Once again, you have replied and failed to state where all these extra dam's in Melbourne can be built, meaning you have no idea. As I said before, Melbourne unlike Sydney and Brisbane has a large number of water storage sources due to a lack of significant rivers. Since they likely picked the best ones easily on, this means what left is small and high cost and now likely developed.  But Don still thinks these magical dam location exist....

You always read my posts Don, you will read this one and you will come up with some reply trying to save yourself.
RTT_Rules
None of this is any justification for a coal-consuming, carbon emitting monster like a desal plant. None of it. Desal plants shouldn't get governments off the hook for allowing Melbourne (for example) to explode to 4.5 million or so WITHOUT thinking about the possibility that those residents were going to need twice the amount of water as Melbourne did in 1983 (when the Thompson dam was finished) - the fact that the VIC government went with desal on that scale is still rank negligence and terribly bad financial management on behalf of both Bracks and the Commonwealth government that forced that situation on them to begin with by allowing mass migration to triple without adequately funding the states.

The paper bag is wet and yet you still can't punch your way out of it, greenie-man...
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Perth and Adelaide don't have large potential catchment areas like Sydney and Melbourne with the great dividing range -
don_dunstan
Could you please point out to us the locations of these untapped catchment areas that have potential to serve Melbourne?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Perth and Adelaide don't have large potential catchment areas like Sydney and Melbourne with the great dividing range -
Could you please point out to us the locations of these untapped catchment areas that have potential to serve Melbourne?
Valvegear
You were agreeing with me about a local water grid earlier on - I've heard that there's still a huge amount of water to be saved from the Wimmera/Grampians irrigation scheme because much of it is still (STILL in 2021) open channels and subject to a lot of evaporation. Wimmera/Mallee is a smaller example, there's even unlikely places like the lakes around Ballarat, Colac etc that could participate in a grid/re-use system. Water could be distributed when there's times of good rain and run-off and distributed into rivers and lakes for later use if other parts of the grid need it.

You know what I'm saying makes the greatest amount of sense - A mini-Bradfield for the states. Sugarloaf should have been reverse-able at the very least so that they could quietly figure out a way of pumping Gunnamatta's ultra-clean outfall (among others) back inland somewhere. Pump Werribee's outfall back up to the head of the river and then take water back out further downstream. Or pump it to the heads of other local rivers on environmental flow grounds - it would be an excellent start rather than pump that ultra-clean treated water right into the ocean.

Water is the one problem I think that can definitely be solved by a more extensive distribution grid - doesn't have to be national.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Don; I asked you to point out the potential catchment areas you said are available to serve Melbourne. You have ignored the question. It is a simple question. Would you please answer it.
The fact that I agreed with you on a different issue is irrelevant.

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